1830 Large Cent help

I believe this is an N4 1830 Large Cent, but wasn't sure about the condition. The photos are a bit poor but should offer a decent photo. My concern is the possible scratch on the reverse ( if it is a scratch ). Though I've not been able to find any other 1830 with this particular feature.
If a scratch does this make the coin basically worthless?

 

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Here's mine, for comparison. Does that help?

It doesn't look like a scratch. It appears raised, like a die crack or a planchet flaw. Maybe you can get past it? These old large cents often have problems.
Lance.

 

I'm guessing it is a scratch.. guess I will be sending this one back as the initial photo was a bit fuzzy and the seller stated it was a die crack. I will look at it under a microscope at work this evening but that will most likely be the outcome..

Nice looking 1830 you have there... mine ran 42.00 so I'm thinking it won't be near that now if the scratch is that bad...

 

Scratches cross devices. Look at the lower right serif of the E. And the blob of metal at the E upright.

I like the coin. The surfaces look very nice. And the color, if it's correct.

I don't have my large cents graded and wouldn't hesitate to put it in an album.
Lance.

 

I looked at it under a microscope lastnight and it is indeed a rather hard scratch. From the appearance it was scratched at an angle enough to push the copper up to the edge in a few spots, like those mentioned.

The color is indeed correct and the surfaces do look very nice for the grade. I still have another day to consider my feelings about it and I wasn't planning to have it graded either. Seems most that buy them graded end up cracking them out.

Did I get the variety correct as an N4 R3?

 

I don't think it is a scratch. It appears to be a planchet flaw. Planchets were not prepared very carefully and sometimes the copper wasn't even mixed well, thus the wood grain effect. The mint did not make their own planchets, but would contract out wherever they could get. And in some years the mint was quite desperate to get those planchets so they could mint their coins. I think the coin is very natural and it is very attractive even with the flaw so visible.

 

Hmmm, the seller stated in his auction that it was a flaw based on whom he bought it from several years ago and that it showed as a flaw under a microscope.

Is there any way I can get this verified further? Hopefully, other copper guru's will chime in as well...

When I looked closely at it, I got the feeling it was/is a deep scratch.. I've looked at close to a hundred 1830's at heritage and Goldberg auction catalogs and have not seen another like this..

 

I agree it's an N4, and I don't believe there are any reported with a die crack in that location. So it is probably either a scratch or a planchet flaw.

Here's the thing for me, if it bothers you then it does not really matter which one it is. There is this sense that a scratch is not ok, but a planchet flaw is, which I personally don't agree with. Yes the planchet flaw is not damage, but it detracts from the coin in much the same way a scratch would. Further, it's not like the 30n4 is a rare coin, or one that usually comes with significant problems like some of the early dates.

Basically, I don't think you found a new die state, so if you don't like the coin send it back.

 

Beef is right, regardless of what it is, if you don't like it then send it back. Otherwise you'll just always have a coin you never like. Happens to us all.
Guy

 

I don't believe any coronet large cents have a die crack like that -- appears to be PMD to me.

It's really too bad, because otherwise that's a wonderful coin. Great planchet and color.

 

This is an early die state of N-4 before the crack though 30 and into the right field. This eliminated a crack on the die as a possibility. The lack of continuation of this scratch across the wreath leads me to two possibilities I can think of.

1. Planchet Flaw - planchet error which is unique to the individual coin or
2. Post Mint damage very early in the coins existence which was subsequently worn to the point of evening out the scratch across the devices.
Ok. 3. Just occurred to me. Lamination error - Occurs during the striking process, but to individual coins. Then wear eliminates the continuation across the device.

If you don't collect errors and varieties, I'd pass on it. I'd be cautious if you did.

 

Marshall,

I know these photos don't show all the detail but, the crack begins at the base of the "1" thru the lower part of the "8" then thru the lower part of the "3" before flowing thru the first "4" stars of the right field and then to the rim between the 4th and 5th stars. That and there is perhap a 5% die rotation between the Obv. and the Rev.

I have a copy of the Cent Book coming most likely by the weekend so at this point I am still learning. I do like the varieties piece of these early coppers. Errors though are not really what I would be looking to explore intentionally.

 

Here is a more advanced die state which shows no reverse crack eliminating a die crack as the explanation for the reverse problem:

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1159&lotNo=3046#Photo

 

It could be a lamination. Good point, Marshall.

 

Well, I do like it and decided to keep it as it has nice detail and the color is really nice also.

Whatever the issue is on the reverse, it looks like it has been there a long time and didn't cost all that much.
I didn't buy it for an error, just a variety. I knew that depending on the N number would determine where those cracks would be.

Will be happy when my cent book arrives as it looks like there will be plenty to explore..

 

Rev - Let the addiction begin!!! You say now you don't collect the errors, but just give it some time. I started off saying I would not collect cuds...

 

cuds I like~~ and I suppose those are errors as well, but I consider them to be more a variety diagnostic.. I was talking more the off center type errors.. but I guess if something hits me the right way.. well..~~ I can't wait to get my copy of the Cent Book.. managed a signed copy off the bay for under 50. should be here next week....

 

Just be careful to note that edge dings can look like CUDs from typical photos. I've had several that fooled me until they could be inspected in the copper.

ps The Cent Book was a bargain
pss I think there is also a weak double profile on your N-4.

 

Agreed, I've noticed some coins being sold as a cud that from a different angle are actually spots where the edge was damaged which "smeared" the copper over the side of the coin...

Is the Cent Book one of the better reference books out there for middle dates?

 

I've only gotten the Cent Book from John D. Wright which I obtained after an evening with them. I suspect the double autograph of both John and Mabel may make it rare. Mabel thankfully dated her autograph 5/22/95 to help this failing memory with the time frame.

The other STANDARD reference is the second volume of Noyes Two Volume Set. I suspect it may have more and better photos since that is the common description. I've never been successful getting the set below $200 after many bids on eBay.