1806 browning 4 quarter - pcgs get it wrong?

Hello folks. Trying to figure out what to do here.

Got the grades back on some coins, I posted this one a few weeks ago.

Grade came back F details (damaged)

I understand that something went on with the rim, but I can't figure out what as some of the cracking appears to go over the denticles on the reverse.

What bothers me most is the F. It is an extremely rare die state per the pcgs library

https://www.pcgs.com/books/quarterdollars/QuarterDollarsOf1806-002.aspx

Even the only 2 pcgs has photos of, the au50 with this dies state has a horribly weak reverse.

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=38930

I would have at least thought it was vf details.

 

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A lot of times they kind of knock off a grade when it's details. A VF 20 gets an F details ect type thing especially on borderline coins. I could go either way on yours

 

I got tons of stick matches, but my brother demonstrated they could be struck on the back of a coin, and ignite. Looks like the wear spot in that specific location it was used there plenty of times. js. Forgot when stick matches were invented. After searching the article, Stick matches were first invented in 1805 f.y.i. Not much to go on, since the coin is dated 1806.

 

It's a weak strike not a wear spot - check the image link above to the 2 browning 4 that pcgs has pictured...

Look at the date on my coin, the hair and eyes...the lettering....it's a strike issue for that die state, state III which is extremely rare.....

 

This link has nothing to do with Die State . It's for Die Pairs ....

 

If so, then it would clearly be in better condition if the wear spot was weak struck, like the left tip of the wing detail is clearly visible. I would of gave it a VF-20 grade, but the wear spot and questionable toning (possibly have been cleaned improperly) F-12 to F-19 maybe. That weak or wear spot stretches over 20% of the reverse side of the coin in an elongated pattern or fashion, just like a stick match struck it there several 100's of times.. A weaker strike wouldn't have as great of details as the left tip of the wing has. Just my opinion. Wear spots & improper cleaning makes for damaged coins. It was problematic when the AU-50 graded one was shown. Here's one that's pretty much fresh off the mint.

 

From the link

Die States:
I. Light crack, rim to top of first S.
II. Small rim breaks above O and F.
III. Heavy cracks from rim through lower left part of 8, top of 1 to ribbon; from rim through left part of 6 through drapery and hair and upright of R to rim. Extremely rare. Ruby I:1132, others.




What would you grade this coin?

 

Looks like the one they demonstrated was previously graded AU-50, being circulated already, and in better condition, but with the same wear spot that was problematic from having been used as a stick match igniter. js. I trust PCGS's opinions, but give or take a grade, is not much else to go on. As for die states, it didn't say were missing details, missing stars, or missing drapery, smudged shield, or missing any details.

 

Yes that is the one they graded au50

Every single browning 4 with the die state iii at least the handful I can find have the exact same spot that look like wear - mine has additional wear in that same spot, but also has more accentuated cracks and the like, like the crack or debris in the shield...

Thanks for your thoughts, I just can't figure out the f....I guess there is not much recourse to try and get them to take another look...

 

Again, it just telling you what's on the die, not the state of the die .
The state of the die means: EDS, MDS, LDS ..

 

Yes, Thanks for sharing your coin, and getting a second opinion. I can assertively say it's been a challenge going through all the information that was given, and still being a little stumped. Nice find anyways. May I ask where you picked it up at?

 

Picked it up at an auction

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1F1YH

Here is another on with the same wear spots on the back

 

Ok it's is confusing to me because they use the work "die states" and then list them out....

 

Here's an example of staging a die .
http://varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/1909PDDO002.htm

 

What's the difference between stage and state?

 

State just tell you what's on the die and staging is the life of the die .

 

I think that's incorrect - I have heard of terminal die state, when it's full of cracks and about to bust apart, but I have never heard of terminal die stage to mean the same thing....

In this example you can see all the cracks from what they listed in die state I, II, and III

 

Ok, now I see what your talking about and that is staging too ..

 

The language is so hard to follow, I mess it up a lot so I am excited I got to be right for once ;-)

I really appreciate your going back and forth with me on this

 

Apparently, the hubbing (stage) process by which the annealing process undergoes reintroduction to being remade into a useable die, undergoes heat treating until the die softens enough to repunch the image onto the die. Die State is the condition of the die from new, to repunched, to old and worn out. Die state covers the whole range of die states, and die stage is when it's undergoing a renewing process, making thus a different variation.