1798/7(?) Draped Bust Large Cent w/ Counterstamp "E. KENDALL 1808"

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by iGradeMS70, Jul 26, 2012.

  1. iGradeMS70

    iGradeMS70 AKA BustHalfBrian

    Hey CT,

    A friend of mine purchased this piece about a decade ago. He said it was in one of those dealer "junk bins", but it intrigued him, so he grabbed it but didn't do much research on it at the time. He recently re-discovered the coin in a safe, brought it to our shop, where I subsequently told him of its potential value, knowing how some of these old counterstamped coins command some nice premiums. So, he gave me the task of finding information on it and hopefully coming it with some sort of value estimate.

    I've contacted a couple of experts on countermarks/counterstamps and/or exonumismatic tokens, and I was told that this may be a counterstamp of the 18th/19th Century British gunsmith, "E. KENDALL", and that it could be worth upwards of $200.00. This estimate truly stunned me, given the condition of the coin and the fact that the date isn't completely discernible - I'm thinking it's a 1798/7 "Wide Overdate" (notice the little point on the outside-top left loop of the last numeral in the date), but now I'm thinking it may be an 1800 - It's just so faint it's tough to say for certain. I'm trying harder to judge what the date may be proportional to the base of the bust, because I know the distance varies between dates/types. My friend thought for years that it was an 1808-dated Draped Bust Large Cent, but I told him that the Draped Bust design was discontinued on large cent denominations in 1807.

    Maybe there's another expert on this site that could come up with a more accurate figure when it comes to the coin's value, or possible determine the coin's date. I know of a few Sheldon variety experts on this site, so I'd love to hear from them! :D

    Any input is greatly appreciated! :yes:


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  3. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I'm pretty good, but I'm afraid this is beyond me. However, I will say that my first impression was 1802 and not 1798 or 1800.
  4. iGradeMS70

    iGradeMS70 AKA BustHalfBrian

    I knew you'd chime in. ;)

    1802 would make sense, but if it were, it'd have to be an 1802 "No Stems". The distance of the date from the base of the bust in the regular 1802 is too great. If you look at the distance between the date and bust on the 1802 "No Stems", it looks similar to mine... and it's quite possible that that's what I have. I'm not sure why I didn't think of this sooner... :p

    Use these pics as a reference...

    Notice the distance of the '1' from the bust's hair curl and the distance of the '2' from the base.

    After looking at these pics for some time, I'm almost certain the coin is 1802 "No Stems". Thanks, Marshall! :thumb:

    1802 (Regular)
    date1 (1.1).jpg

    1802 "No Stems"
    date2 (1.1).jpg

    PS: The height of the digits may be off... I had to blow up the photos and they didn't turn out too even. :p

  5. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Interesting stuff here guys......:)
  6. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    FYI, There are 14 different obverses in 1802 rather than just 2. The two stemless 1802s are both common (S-231 and S-241). I actually had 7 S-231s before I started disposing of my collection. In heavily worn cents, the gaps at the bottoms are usually distorted so concentrate on the gaps between the tops of the numbers and the hair, curl and bust. Even there, I don't think there is sufficient detail to distinguish between varieties. But I do think the top of the 2 can be made out and distinguished from a 0 or 8.

    At least 7 of the obverses are good candidates and most of the rest are conceivable in worn condition.

    Only the NCs would actually add value to the counterstamp anyway, so I wouldn't be too concerned.
  7. iGradeMS70

    iGradeMS70 AKA BustHalfBrian

    Alright. Good to know. :)

    I'm pretty sure this thing is too far gone to try an attribute if it were an NC variety anyways. Concluding a date was my only goal as far as the coin goes... But the counterstamp is what I'm really interested in learning more about.

    If anyone has a Brunk guide to C/S coins, would you mind checking if anything similar to this one is listed? Unfortunately, I don't own a copy... :eek: It's on my growing list of "things to get". :p

  8. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Brunk doesn't list this one Brian. I also have a copy of his 2006 draft which also doesn't list it. The only way to be sure this is the mark of the gunsmith is to find an example of his on one of his weapons. Honestly, the stamp looks a little big to me to be a gunsmith stamp but that doesn't mean it's not. The date is interesting because gunmakers often used dates to indicate model years. If someone could tie a "Model 1808" (if one exists) weapon to Kendall it would make it more likely that the stamp is his.

    As far as the date and condition of the coin goes, it's not of great importance to a counterstamp collector. Not to say that a nicer coin isn't more desireable, it is. The counterstamp itself grades out pretty good, so the coins poor condition doesn't bother me. I can look into Kendall a bit if you want me to Brian. I'll be away for a few days but will get back to you next week. Also, let me know if your friend has an interest in selling it.

  9. jhinton

    jhinton Well-Known Member

    I also have my doubts about it being a gunsmith, though hard to disprove. The E. Kendall is a prepared punch while the date is obviously not. That may help to narrow it down if another counter stamp can be found with E. Kendall but with a different date or model number? I would also try silversmiths but as I am in Afghanistan, I do not have access to any of my reference material to help out.
  10. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I did have a chance to search around a bit Brian but couldn't find any gunsmith named E. Kendall. The closest was Nicanor Kendall who was a Vermont smith from the early 1800's. Unfortunately, I don't have many gunsmith references but the ones I do have don't list him. It occurred to me after reading your thread this morning that if Kendall were an English maker the odds of him stamping a U.S. coin would be pretty remote. If he had practiced in England first and then immigrated here later and carried on the trade then he might have stamped your coin. I'll keep looking and let you know if anything shows up.

  11. iGradeMS70

    iGradeMS70 AKA BustHalfBrian

    I appreciate all of the help, Bruce! :) Hope something turns up on this "E. KENDALL".

    From what research I've done, I haven't found a single coin with a counterstamp similar to mine. I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one out there - Just that it isn't be talked about anywhere on the interwebs. :p

  12. iGradeMS70

    iGradeMS70 AKA BustHalfBrian

    All logical points. :) Appreciate the input, jhinton.

    Hope you're alright it Afghanistan! :sniper:

  13. beef1020

    beef1020 Junior Member

    If it's an 1802 it's not an NC, on the NC1 the 8 is leaning to the right, and on the NC2 the date is evenly spaced. It also looks like the T is past the brow.
  14. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    A large number of counterstamps are one-of-a-kind Brian, so it's not surprising that you didn't find another like it. Counterstamp collectors are small in number but dedicated to their branch of collecting (Dave Bowers is one of them). I'll contact a few others for you and see if any have seen one like yours or have an idea as to may have issued it.

  15. Larry R Bon

    Larry R Bon New Member

    i just bought a drapped bust large cent 1802 XF but has a counter mark on face TR im trying to find out if its worth anything or valuless because of counter stamp i dont see a place to post a photo of it but the coin is mint other than that.
    BRandM likes this.
  16. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I'd like to see a photo of it, Larry. Just click on "Upload a File" below, and do it that way.

  17. beef1020

    beef1020 Junior Member

    Most certainly not valueless. These are a heavily collected series, and your coin would have multiple overlapping collector bases. Could be appealing to large cent folks, token collectors, counter stamp, etc. Please post a picture, use the 'Upload a File' button next to the 'Post Reply'. I would love to see the coin, front and back!!!
  18. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    ps It has to be a new post since editing won't allow you to upload a photo.
  19. Larry R Bon

    Larry R Bon New Member

    this is the coin i paid 55 everyone is scared of counter stamp i think it brings history to it making it more valuable but i may be wrong.

    Attached Files:

    BRandM likes this.
  20. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Nice coin and stamp. Larry. I think you did fine on the price.

    Larry R Bon likes this.
  21. Larry R Bon

    Larry R Bon New Member

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