1783 Washington & Independence Token - Military Bust Type

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by ryanbrooks, Nov 29, 2008.

  1. ryanbrooks

    ryanbrooks Active Member

    Hello everyone! :D

    I just wanted to share a coin I recently required. It's a 1783 Washington & Independence Token, Military Bust Type. I haven't yet figured out its exact variety, but I'm working on it. All questions and comments are welcome! :hammer:

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  3. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    I believe it's a 5D but not 100% certain:

    http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinImages/Washingtons1-16/Wash.military.obv-5.jpg

    http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinImages/Washingtons1-16/Wash.military.rev-D.jpg

    There are a few little things I need to see in order to be certain and I'd have to have it in hand to see them, so mail it to me and I'll attribute it properly. :whistle:

    I don't have this variety . . . YET! :D

    Love it! :thumb:

    Ribbit :cool:

    Ps: You may want to put him on a low caffeine diet. Looks like he's been drinking too much coffee. :rolling:
     
  4. ryanbrooks

    ryanbrooks Active Member

    I think a 5D just about fits it, but it's hard to tell because most of the varieties look the same! :rolling: Everything lines up to the reference pics though :)
     
  5. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    One thing I noticed is the E.S. intials on the reverse. The E looks tilted a little, which the D reverse appeared to show, but I can't see it clearly on your pics so you will need to look at the small details and compare them to the examples to attribute it properly. ;)

    Ribbit :)
     
  6. ryanbrooks

    ryanbrooks Active Member

    Here are some really close up pics I took with my 30X loupe :D

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  7. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    That does appear to match the D reverse initials and earlier I said E.S. when it's actually K.S.. I never looked that close and it always looked like a E to me. :goofer:

    Great job on using a loop with your camera to show the tiny details! :thumb:

    Ribbit :)

    Ps: I just read ND's write-up and it says E.S. also, so now I have to email Louis to find out what's going on? Yours is clearly a K and on one of mine, it could be a K but hard to tell, so I'm thinking the K looks so much like a E it could easily be mistaken as an E. Will inform you of what I find out. ;)
     
  8. ryanbrooks

    ryanbrooks Active Member

    I was actually thinking H.S? But the more I look at it, I think your right about it being a K ;)

    I was also surprised that the camera actually focused onto the initials too! :D
     
  9. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    I'd say it's either a H or K but it is not an E, and I believe the plate pic of the D reverse also shows the same thing and on my 9F, I believe it too is a K, so this might prove interesting since the initials have been thought to be those of Edward Savage, a painter from Philadelphia. If the intials aren't E.S., then who is this mystery person? :eek:

    This is getting good! :D

    Ribbit :)

    Ps: It could also be a flaw in the die and the E looks like a K because of it. ;)

    Pps: Here is the 1A reverse and I think it looks like a K also:

    http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinImages/Washingtons1-16/Baker-4A.rev.jpg
     
  10. ryanbrooks

    ryanbrooks Active Member

    I find it hard to believe that after all these years, some one hasn't found this out yet? Either the E's were made like that, or no one has paid close enough attention! :eek: I would love to get down the the bottom of this! :D
     
  11. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    I just looked at the 3 reverses for the Draped Bust variety and I think they look like K's also! :eek:

    http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/WashDRAPED.intro.html

    Now I can't wait to hear back from Louis, since he has some awesome examples he can look at in hand to determine what's going on. :D

    Ribbit :)

    Ps: I also emailed Will and asked him to look into this. I'm not sure if he has any of the Washington Tokens but considering what he does have, I'd be surprised if he didn't. I drool over his coins! :thumb:
     
  12. ryanbrooks

    ryanbrooks Active Member

    Let me know what they say, I am eager to find out! :D

    I have searched and searched on the internet, but cannot find anything that talks about the signatures besides it saying that it is E.S? Maybe that is just the way the E was printed out?
     
  13. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    I can clearly make out upper and lower breaks in the line on the Draped Cents so there is no way it's an E on those. I read what Breen had to say about these and he also says the same thing but doesn't reference a source so I'm wondering if it was Breen that made the correlation that E.S. is Edward Savage and he got it wrong? I've heard Breen got a lot wrong with the Colonial stuff so it wouldn't surprise me if he is the cause for this error? Plus, these tokens are a take off of Wellington Tokens (U.K.) so what does a Philadelphia artist have to do with them?

    Ribbit :)
     
  14. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

  15. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    After further review, I think it is an E. :(

    However, on the D reverse, it does appear there is damage to the die in this area that makes it appear to be a H or K, so that's what threw us off. :goofer:

    Oh well! :D

    Ribbit :)
     
  16. ryanbrooks

    ryanbrooks Active Member

    That is what I was thinking. It could be that it's just this variety type, and the way it was minted ;)
     
  17. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    It was fun while it lasted. :D Plus, it got me to read up more on them and that's always a good thing. ;)

    Ribbit :cool:
     
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