İ have heard these are fake by some experts through the pictures? Are they really, if so?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by memeni, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. HaleiwaHI

    HaleiwaHI Active Member

    Remember rule #1, have a sense of humor. People are just having fun here. Take a deep breath and enjoy the conversation. It's really quite humorous.
    Chuck_A likes this.
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  3. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    The opening poster seems to expect that there is a comprehensive list one can cross off to determine if a coin is genuine or fake. Reality is more complex.
    In reality we might ask the openingposter to look at a stranger, and ask why that man is not his father ?
    The openingposter could respond with a short list of differences between the stranger and his father. Without doubt one could pick a new stranger which complied with all his objections made. And he would still say, 'but that's not my father !'.
    More likely, if asked such a question, the opening poster would answer 'I know my father, and that's not him !'.
    When judging a coin, the mind of the expert probably works in a very similar way.
    Chuck_A, Puckles and Roman Collector like this.
  4. Silverlock

    Silverlock Well-Known Member

    Ah. The easiest way to do that is to put the Latin word for authentic, C O P Y, on the back.
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  5. To say anything, we would need weights for each coin and good pictures combining the obverse and reverse. What we have now is a mass of uncoordinated picture which which we can do little. I am veru suspicious of this group.
  6. memeni

    memeni Member

    This is very important to me, how can you tell they are fake? İ want to believe they are fake as wwll
  7. memeni

    memeni Member

    İ want to believe the same way but how were you able to tell ?
  8. PlanoSteve

    PlanoSteve Supporter! Supporter

    Do you not get it? We are not going to tell you how to improve your fakes.
    Theodosius, Roman Collector and Orfew like this.
  9. Silverlock

    Silverlock Well-Known Member

    You want to believe they’re fake? What?

    Here’s your answer: you showed a dozen owls worth $5000 or more — IF REAL. Don’t take the opinions of random people on the internet. Send the coins to NGC. Ask the opinion of a trusted ancients dealer. Take them to the British Museum. No one can verify authenticity from photos.
    Theodosius likes this.
  10. Chuck_A

    Chuck_A Well-Known Member

    Exemplum Transscribo
  11. gsimonel

    gsimonel Supporter! Supporter

    If you are seriously interested in collecting ancient coins, you need to start slowly. Buy from reputable dealers who will stand behind what they sell you. Buying lots of coins at well below market value from shady characters guarantees that you will get ripped off. It happens all the time.

    You want to know how I could tell that your coins were fake? I didn't even need to see the photos. The circumstances by which you acquired them told me they were fake.
    Roman Collector likes this.
  12. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    ... or stolen, in which case you're in even deeper trouble.
  13. Dillan

    Dillan The sky is the limit !

    I think that somebody trying to get better at faking these and possible others by having people here let them know the particulars on what to look for. He sounds like a young guy following in his fathers footsteps , and maybe this is the only way they know how to make a living. Any information I think is just helping the forgers hone their skills. They could just look the info up on the internet I suppose , and I hope this young man decides to take up a new profession other then smuggling coins out of Turkey. They would have some pretty harsh penalties if caught doing what they are doing. You may end up swinging at the bottom of a rope . Dillan
  14. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    What an interesting conundrum this thread presents! A man claiming to be from Turkey shows us us some pictures of highly questionable Attic Tets and asks us to help him determine if they are authentic or not. When he is told that they do not look good, he asks how we can tell. Of course, knowledgeable collectors know that we have not been given enough information about the material to be able to respond to that, but as he fails to give us the data we need, suspicion about his motivation and character rises and comes to a boil. Soon he is painted as a budding criminal bent on honing his craft guided by our advice, and the group turns away from offering him anything, including hospitality. The emergent attitude seems to be: why risk aiding and abetting a possible criminal in the effort to help out what may or may not be a struggling newby collector. Guilty until proven innocent.

    Could this be a clash of culture? Since I am imbued with the American approach which presumes innocence until proven guilty, I am going to suggest coming at this in a different way. And it isn't necessary to give up the farm in order to be prudent about all this. Can citizens of Turkey legally collect coins?

    There is at least one major national numismatic association in Turkey, so collectors do exist, but there is also a piece of legislation that has them bound to modern material. This is law No. 2863: Law on the Conservation of Cultural and Natural Artifacts. This was put forward in 1982 by the National Security Council, adopted and published in their Official Gazette on: 23/07/1983 number: 18113, and has not been amended since.
    Read it for yourselves: https://kvmgm.ktb.gov.tr/TR-43249/law-on-the-conservation-of-cultural-and-natural-propert-.html

    This law, which was intended to preserve cultural heritage, has resulted in the melting of untold numbers of Ottoman silver coins which can no longer be collected and so are being reused as raw silver by their Turkish owners
    It has also stimulated widespread smuggling of those coins OUT of Turkey which may be the only way to actually preserve them for Turkish posterity. "Speaking about the issue, Culture and Tourism Minister Ertuğrul Günay said he was not aware about the melting of Ottoman coins but added that he would start an investigation into the issue." Somehow I don't think he has overturning the law in mind. But more to our point, in such an environment it is not hard to imagine that anyone wishing to collect ancient coins would struggle, not only with issues of authenticity, but also with trust issues in matters of guidance. Asking the wrong person for advice might end up in jail time.

    Let us assume that "memeni" MIGHT be on the up and up. How can we respond to his initial question without giving away the farm? @memeni let me first of all suggest that you seek out an online source for purchase of a reliably authentic example of an attic tetradrachm of the same period and type as what you are showing us. Let it be a basis for comparison. But if getting it into Turkey is going to be a problem, then you will need to check for examples at a local museum which might have such a thing on display. If even that fails, then use the online tool "acsearch" ( https://www.acsearch.info/home.html ) so you can see images of numerous authentic examples of these coins for comparison purposes. One of the first rules in collecting ancients is: study best what is known to be authentic.

    When you have become better informed about the subject you are investigating and have a better sense about what to ask and how to ask it, visit the list and see if we can help you along.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  15. Dillan

    Dillan The sky is the limit !

    The young man mentioned that his father was a smuggler of coins , and a seller to those wishing to buy. The young fellow is following in his fathers footsteps so to say. I am venturing a guess that it may be hard to survive in Turkey with all of the unrest so people are doing what ever it takes to be able to survive . So can a person fault someone for trying to make a buck to eat ? I say no , as long as you do not hurt others along the way . Hurting people , by taking some of their money , so you could survive , may be out of desperation , that I can kind of understand . Unless a person can really tell who is scripting the thread , there is far to many unknowns to think otherwise . The fakes are starting to ruin this hobby , and not only will the new comers get scared off , everyone is going to be second guessing every ancient coin they search out to buy . Good deals will get over looked because the quality of the forgers , and the potential buyer scared on losing his hobby funds. This can now be copied and made to precision with the proper equipment that even the pros will be second guessing their decisions . I suspect that over time there will be more and more fakes found slabbed by the pros that get by because of the quality of the fake.
    PlanoSteve and Heavymetal like this.
  16. AngelDeath

    AngelDeath Well-Known Member

    Speaking of fakes this is from China check the wear pattern it is consistent with this type!

    Looks pretty slghy.jpg bhdy.jpg bhdy.jpg good!
  17. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    Dillan, I'm not sure he means by "smuggling" what you seem to mean, but even if it does, how do you go from illegal import/export to the production of fakes? Apples and oranges. In particular, might not even a smuggler still want to assure that he only handles authentic merchandise? "Black Market" may be illicit without being fake.
  18. Dillan

    Dillan The sky is the limit !

    Your absolutely correct , thank you dillan
  19. Dillan

    Dillan The sky is the limit !

    I just read under Turkish Laws it is illegal to possess any antiquities such as coins ,carpets, statues ,etc. . If you happen to be a farmer there , and you find say a coin or buried statue on your property , it is supposed to be turned over to the nearest museum under Government control. Any person caught with these items in their possession face a serious length of time in jail. Any item that is older then 1 or 2 centuries fall under this Turkish law. Just thought some of you may be interested in knowing this especially if you are planning a trip to Turkey . They tell tourists or visitors not to purchase any items from the locals. Dillan
  20. Silverlock

    Silverlock Well-Known Member

    Living life according to a 1500 year old book = good
    Owning an heirloom of that 1500 year old book = bad

    Makes perfect sense to me.
  21. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Good plan – but ask a few.

    Careful not to waste your bus fare. Since 2014 the BM will refuse to look at most coins – unless you (unusually) have clear documentation of local ownership back before 1970.

    I judge we reached that pass for a bunch of reasons. One of them is that as increasingly curators are drawn from the pool of university qualified archaeologists, rather than the pool of collector enthusiasts – the staff are becoming less able to give worthwhile judgements anyway.

    Not of course a blanket comment, but not without some truth.

    Rob T
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