What makes makes a bust "Heroic" (ancients)

Need to spark up some more ancient discussions


So what is is a heroic bust, how is it different from a normal(?) bust?

 

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Usually 'heroic' implies more or the bust being shown with arms, torso and a weapon actually doing something beyond posing for the 'camera'. Often the bust is nude or dressed more like a god than like we usually associate with rulers on a coin portrait. My example shows Menander (Indo Greek) throwing (not just holding) a spear while shirtless. IMO it is not appropriate to call an emperor in armor just holding a spear 'heroic'. There has to be some extra feature in the way of pose or attire that makes it look like the ruler is trying to be more than a mere mortal.

 

Thanks Doug. Thats a pretty cool example too.

 

An heroic bust is when the drug dealer or terrorist gives the cop a good reason to shoot him.

Chris

 

Crispus Solidus - "Heroic bust"

Not mine, just found it online, really nice!

 

That is a nice one (sorry it is not yours). Note that heroic busts are usually confined to a few Roman emperors who favored the type. Crispus is one but the military busts of his father and brothers tend to be overdressed to get the term. Hadrian has a lot of bare chested busts usually called heroic even though they do not have the weapon. Caracalla has a few on provincials but not Roman denominations. Probus, who has more variant busts than anyone, has a few I'd call heroic but many more that appear to be static poses in armor. Bare chest or with an animal skin over the shoulder looks heroic. It is up to each of us to decide where we accept the term and where it is pushing the matter. I'm not sure I would call any shirtless coin heroic but, to me, the term implies showing up for battle minus a full suit of armor. A problem comes on some when a little wear makes it hard to tell if we are seeing skin or armor. I'll add a Probus that is pretty certainly skin and, therefore, heroic but the vast majority of his are in full armor.

Except for Hadrian (whose weaponless heroic busts are pushing the term a bit) the vast majority of heroic busts will face left. I'll put out the challenge to show a right facing heroic bust that includes a weapon and bare skin. I don't have one.

 

heres my denarius of Hardian

 

I can honestly say I have never seen a coin with such cleavage. This is a perfect example of a Hadrian heroic. Some show a little drapery on the far shoulder with a clasp that can wear away. Thanks for bringing up an ancient topic worth discussing. I don't know how many ancient collectors we have on Coin Talk but its up to us to make it interesting. You did.

 

Thank you and again for posting.

 

Thanks for sharing this interesting coin. After reading this thread, I checked my Indo-Greek coins and realized that I have mis-attributed couple of them. Instead of writing "Heroic Bust" I wrote "Diademed Bust" on couple of flips.

You mentioned Manender is shirtless but I think he is wearing armor in this heroic bust style.

Some of my coins of Manender are posted here -> http://www.cointalk.com/t29339/

Regards,
Ballabh Garg

 

Like doug said, very good topic randy, thanks for bringing it up. The only times I have really ever heard the term 'heroic bust' used was referring to Hadrian coins, with the bust just like randy showed.
The ones of Probus do look quite heroic.

Here is my only example of a Hadrian 'heroic bust' which randy has seen of course.

and as far as this Philip I Tetradrachm, with the cuirass and no drapery, he sure looks pretty heroic to me, yet I don't know if it could be labelled a 'heroic bust'.

 

I would not call the Philip 'heroic'. He looks military in a human sense of the word rather than imitating a god or hero. The ultimate hero is Hercules and we see Commodus wearing the lion skin head dress of Hercules but I've never seen that labeled 'heroic'. Usually we just call him crazy. The more I think about it, the more emphasis I put on the need for a heroic bust being shirtless. I'm attaching two more coins and I'd say neither is heroic. Probus, certainly, shows not only too much clothing but the weapon is back on the shoulder rather than in action. The Crispus is closer with weapon forward but I'll say no due to the clothing. Your opinions may differ.

 

Well, I certainly see what you are saying. Great looking coins you show there, maybe not 'heroic' per se, but still a good military bust, and that is something I much like.

As far as the Commodus issues with the lion skin, I am a big fan of those, but have also never heard them referred to as 'heroic'. But with the Emperor in lionskin, and the club on the reverse with 'Roman Hercules' proclaimed around it certainly does seem just a little bit 'heroic' Do you have any of this series doug?

In auctions, the only time I've seen any bust described as 'heroic bust' is with coins of Hadrian.

 

It seems to me that bust left is usually, (not always), used to garner attention to specific issues. Like you alluded Doug, I have seen most heroic busts, and a large number of "military" busts, (excluding Hadrian whom I just think like being portrayed shirtless), facing left when more peaceful designs are usually right. Was this used in such a fashion do you think?

I agree with Doug that heroic busts are meant to describe a hero in action, like herakles. Other busts with weapons and shirts are usually described as military bust in my experience.

Btw, that is a pretty scarce Crispus isn't it Doug?

 

I'm gona label one as "Commodus, crazy bust left" when i get a Commodus in lion skin now.

 

Yes, the Crispus is uncommon as are all of that reverse from other rulers. The coin is shown on Plate 21 of Victor Failmezger's book with a Licinius II and Constantine I but the one you want is the Constantine II which I've never seen in person.

My photo file has a Commodus that I would call lower end but not junk. Also there is this aureus which went for six times the estimate in 2007. Would these tough times return a profit were it sold again?
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=7970

If you were looking for a present to send me, I'd rather have this medallion and the difference in cash:
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=379257

Some low end denarii and asses sell for under $100. Ancient collectors are just as condition conscious as US collectors. Below a certain grade it is harder to see the lion details and the coin is not rare in low grade (there are several on vcoins).

 

Your's doesn't look too bad to me, but that medallion for sale is amazing. The aureus is beautiful as well, it's quite an interesting issue. I saw one similar to yours, denarius, on ebay with a starting bid of $150, I don't think anyone bid. I'm also not sure if it had the same reverse as yours, or the other style reverse with the club in a wreath.

Great stuff doug.

 

If there is a difference the single club reverse is more often seen, I believe, but what drives the price is the portrait quality. I am a little surprised these don't sell for more simply because they are different and Commodus is well known as a crazy. I know it is gold but a quarter million for the aureus is over the top, IMHO, while that bimetallic medallion almost seems worth the price of a new car???

 

Yeah thats a bit pricey

 

Thanks for asking the question @randygeki! What a fun near decade old Post with some really neat coins
Here are a few that I believe fit the bill for heroic:


Commodus
177-192 AD AE As 24-25 mm, 10.34 g, Rome, 192 AD.
Obv. L AEL AVREL COMM AVG P FEL, Head to right, wearing lion skin headdress.
Rev. HERCVL / ROMAN / AVGV / S C, Legend divided by club within laurel wreath.
RIC III 644; C. 193; BMC 722.
An interesting type. Fine to very fine.From: Auctiones GmbH


Despite not having a weapon I certainly feel this Constant"stain" fits the bill as looking heroic. Though does it qualify?

Constantine I
Æ Follis. Ticinum, AD 318-319. Laureate, helmeted and cuirassed bust right / Two Victories standing facing, together holding shield inscribed VOT/PR in two lines on altar; PT in exergue. RIC 87


I do wonder though, it seems like the implication is that what is considered a "heroic pose" is ment only for Emperors and not the gods? Or am I miss reading this and here we are simply seeing Emperors in heroic poses?
Certainly my Apollos fit the bill for heroic (I believe I've shared one of these but not both recent acquisitions):



Caesia Denarius. AR. Southern Italy. (112-111 BCE.). A / Bust diademado of Apolo Vejovis to izq. with arrows, behind (letters). R / The two Lares gods sitting with a scepter and a dog, above the head of Vulcano with pincers, in the field (LA-RE), in exergue L · CAESI. 3.29g. FFC.222. It served as a jewel.ExPliego



Licinia
Denarius. AR. Rome. (84 B.C.). A / Head diademada of Apollo Vejovisto the left with beam of rays in the hand. R / Minerva in quadriga to der., Below (C LICINIVS L F / MACER). 3.38g. FFC.803. BC- / RC. FrI'm Pliego