Isn't against the law to pass off a conterfeit as the real deal?

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't seem to find anything regarding this pointed question. The subject of counterfeit coins and bills has been discussed on many occasions but have we ever discussed the legality, that is to say, isn't it against the law to pass a counterfeit bill/coin in everyday commerce? Then why do so many people get away with it while selling on e-bay? This thread brought the thought to mind...http://www.cointalk.com/t127587/#post987775

More specifically, it was this auction....http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180556277695&ssPageNam e=STRK:MEWNX:IT

The guy's passing off an obviously fake coin as the real deal. He already has a negative feedback regarding a counterfeit sale. So why hasn't he been taken to task? It's not like this guy lives in China. The auction has been reported so why doesn't e-bay do something....like alert the proper authorities of this fraud?

 

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I could be wrong, but didn't the trade dollar have its legal tender status removed? If its not legal tender, the law against passing off a counterfeit wouldn't apply. I think he might be doing something a bit naughty under the US Hobby Protection Act though...

 

That is an excellent point....kind 'o blows my rant out of the water.

 

I think it's against the law to try and pass counterfeit items as real currency, but all those replica coins made in China can be sold legally. And in China, there are no laws against making foreign currency. It's the same with Casino chips. It is against Nevada law to counterfeit them. Legal to make them in California. Do not get caught trying to pass them though, Nevada has it as a class A felony like murder, I believe.

gary

 

I don't know if it would have to be marked as COPY, but to knowingly sell anything under false pretenses is fraud regardless of legal tender status.

 

And the piece in question displays nothing in regard to 'copy'......

 

It is a good question though as to whether it would fall under the jurisdiction of the counterfeit currency laws.

 

He has sold several counterfeit Trade Dollars, and it is against the law. I just reported him to Ebay for each of those transactions.

 

The Trade Dollar was remonetized in the Coinage Act of 1965.

 

Wrong on both counts. My rant is about how people post things from inside their heads without checking the facts.

Trade Dollars are dollars. Now, if there is a better citation, I bow to that, but there is my source.

Also, US Code, Title 18: Crimes; CHAPTER 17—COINS AND CURRENCY (§§ 331—337) and especially CHAPTER 25—COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY (§§ 470—514)
(See here) make it absolutely, positively, unquestionably clear in no uncertain terms that it is always against the law to make, design, create, implement, copy, manufacture, trade, buy or sell or transport any or all of the tools, means, modes, methods, operations, and procedures for counterfeiting any form of money, coupon, coin, banknotes, tokens or other kinds of money or money objects or money substitutes of the United States or any of its States or of any foreign nation.

How do they get away with it? Volume: too many people doing it and not enough enforcement. The IRS just hired 10,000 new agents. You might have heard about the problems on the Mexican border. Can't have 150 million people watching the other 150 million.

About ten years ago, at the insistence of the US Government, China beheaded three men who were counterfeiting Federal Reserve Notes. But no one cares if some nerdy coin geeks get ripped off.

If you want to, you can find these sellers, track them down, swear out a complaint and get an officer of a court to arrest one. Then go on to the next one. And the next one. And so on.

You could join the ANA and ICTA and help lobby Congress for stronger enforcement. But that means spending money like BP and Goldman Sachs to get BP and Goldman Sachs results. No one cares of some coin geeks get ripped off. ... not unless there's tens of thousands of dollars flowing into each of the accounts of hundreds of Congressional representatives....

(And yes, boycotting the Mint already has been tried before with little success.)

So, get the facts straight, but realize that it is hopeless.

Sorry.

 

So, to pose another question, why doesn't the Secret Service get involved?

This from their web site......http://www.secretservice.gov/money_law.shtml

 

Mike, if they made an example out of some of these people on e-bay, maybe the abuse wouldn't be so rampant.

 

@mmarota, as I said 'I could be wrong' America is not my native country, so I said what I said with a qualifier. I wasn't sure of the legal tender status of the trade dollar, so I qualified that comment as well. Apparently it is legal tender again (which I wasn't aware about), having previously been demonetised (which I was right about).
In any case, I think I am still right about it being subject to different legislation if its non-legal tender status had still been in effect.
In Britain, counterfeit money is strictly defined in legal terms as an imitation of legal tender currency, whether foreign or domestic. Fakes of historic non-legal tender coins are not classed as 'counterfeit money' and is unlike legal tender currency, not illegal as such, but would fall under different anti-fraud legislation if someone attempted to sell or profit from them by pretending that they are something they are not.
I don't know what the US law is on this issue, but I would have thought that selling say, a fake Roman sestertius would be covered by different legislation (such as the Hobby Protection Act in the case of the US) compared to a legal tender Morgan, which would presumably be subject to different anti-counterfeit legislation, which probably prescribes significantly harsher penalties for a crime which has historically been seen as equivalent to treason in may parts of the world....

 

Just as the DEA does not want to fool with the two bit seller on the street corner (they want the bigger fish in the drug world) the Secret Service will not respond to a person selling a bogus coin on e-bay, they are after major counterfeiters.

 

Agree completely that any time someone intentionally misrepresents an item they sell, it is fraud. Dishonest and Cheating. I honestly believe the world can conduct business in a fair and equitable manner for all parties involved, but know that will never happen. Be it a fake ID, a fake coin, diamond, whatever, It's wrong and there needs to not only be rigid enforcement, but strong punishments against this.

gary

 

I bet this one isn't real either. I have this issue (1 of 3 Morgans that I own) on my saved searches, coincidentally he listed this coin last night.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180556990566&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

 

Well, yes, and I said that it was my rant. I apologize for being harsh. I look up US laws all the time, but I would be lost trying to find the reliable and easy sites for the UK. I cited the law as posted on the Cornell University site. It is well-known; but not every dot.edu is reliable and for the dot.ac.uk sites, except for Oxford, Cambride, LSE, and maybe another, I would not know a real establishment from one those newly transformed trade school universities. So, again, I understand and I apologize.

And you are right: the Roman sestertius is not the lawful obligation of an existing entity. Current bus tokens from Budapest are covered; ancient coins are not. The USA is peculiar in that, as noted, the 1965 Coinage Act made all the moneys of the USA -- with some few exceptions, such as Gold Notes -- legal tender. On the other hand, in Canada, when the banks wanted to trade in Loonies for Twonies, the Royal Canadian Mint said, "Sorry." Coins are not legal tender in Canada. Oddly enough, though, in Greece, before the euro, as products of the government, coins were legal tender, but banknotes, as the obligations of a private corporation, were mere convenieces.

Be all that as it may, again, I tug my forelock.

 

Hobo is correct that the Coinage Act of 1965 established currency status for all coins and paper produced in the United States under US governmental autorization. This means that all coins ever produced by the US Mint are currency at face value, and this is generally believed to include the Trade Dollar. It also grants the same status to paper produced by individual banks so long as it was done under the auspices of the Federal Government. Thus, there is no US currency that is truly "obsolete". Now, on the question why no one does anything about it, I would guess that since there are no trade dollars in circulation, they consider it a problem of the hobby not the currency. It doesn't really make sense, because if you photocopy a dollar bill and have it in your house and get busted, it is no different than if you tried to spend it. They consider all of it counterfieting, but apparently choose to overlook this problem.

 

The OP's coin has been pulled by eBay. In fact all of his trade dollars went away

 

Actually you could have them arrested.
The new theme for the Feds crackdown is anti-counterfeiting products. If you can get a name and address and give it as a tip off they'll investigate and his edited will end up in a federal prison.

Just a suggestion......