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Fair enough that you say the process is "slow enough", but the color is not just from the sulphur reaction, but also due to trace other compounds that will also be trapped in the reaction. My idea of an unstable matrix is concerning that if you speed a chemical reaction to occur faster than it normally would, than the matrix of links is not quite the same as if it occurred more slowly. This matrix may or may not be stable long term, while slower occurring reactions tend to builds more stable bonds. It has been a long time since inorganic chemistry, but that is a close paraphrase from the text. Since the reaction is not a "clean reaction" in which the only reacting chemicals are present, then the resulting reaction has unknown bonds forming.

You have to admit that by definition retoning a coin has many more elements present than just silver or copper and sulphur, since that is the case I was just worried about the long term stability of the resulting reaction, how it would age, and how stable the chemical bonds would be, since they by definition are not quite the same bonds that would have occurred given a different time frame. Every coin we talk about have more metals in them than just silver or copper, also I haven't heard anyone saying to clean the surfaces first and do this where other gases are not present. That is the reason I was talking about an "unstable matrix" if I was unclear.

Again, I am not saying your product could not be a good product, just that this point would be the only point I would worry about if I were to use your product to retone coins that have been cleaned.

 

No offense, but you are obviously not a chemist. I'm not sure why you're trying to make up your own science, but your chemical theories and understanding of toning are just plain wrong. Don't feel bad, you're not alone as most coin collectors do not understand chemistry. I can count on one hand the number of scientists on this forum that do know what they're talking about when it comes to coin chemisty. It's not worth my time to debate the folks that do not understand so I will now yield.

 

To quote from the below listed source: "The slower a reaction, the greater the kinetic stability. "

This is what I was referring to. Thanks for denegrading my 4 semesters of chemistry. I admit I am not in the field, but where did you get your chemical degree from?

http://www.avogadro.co.uk/brief_topics/stability.htm

I was simply pointing out this (very) obvious fact to anyone who has ever taken chemistry and wondering how your product was affected by it.

As you, I will yield the floor to someone who is either a chemist or has more time to look up simple definitions of chemical properties.

Chris

 

Hey Doug,

I stumbled over this old thread that was recently resurrected on the CU forum. The OP is talking about the toning bubble bursting in November 2002.

How to create an AT coin

This thread certainly makes it appear the the toning premiums were alive and well in 2002. And certainly the popularity of toned coins did not happen over night which would lead me to believe that toning premiums have existed at least since the turn of the century. Does anyone know what year Bob Campbell released his video about artificial toning? He mentions the Appalachian Nickels in that thread which were being sold by Andy Kimmel for significant premiums. I am not trying to stir the pot, but the info just kinda fell in my lap.

 

So the dark toning you were referring to is for coins other than copper.. got it,

and these "proper" methods must be top secret? Why are they secret? What are they hiding?

SO why are their methods approved? Who approves them, how did they make themselves so special. What do they use gloves and masks when handle the coins and subsequent chemicals?

Hey! didn't I say that the lamb had to bathed of all its impurities?


All jokes of course, but somehow I don't think anyone here likes my humor. I mean, what is the harm in damaging damage? I have a hobby in coin collecting and now copper metallurgy. Sort of like rebuilding a wrecked car for a demolition derby? If you say don't further damage it, then it does have value? How much value?

 

but thats personal information

here we are trying to improve the coin community so they can save their coins without having to pay horrendous fees

 

these methods are hardly a secret thad knows them gd knows them i know them. there are several ways to tone and clean coins that will get them in slabs. an expert will know 99% of the time it has been cleaned but not so for at coins. GD doesnt give out his info becuase he doesnt want any coin doctors i dont give the info out because i personally could care less about toned coins the less the better and i am not going to create a toned market for coins. hell there is even a way to get harshly cleaned coins graded depending on certain tradeoffs but again you wont find many people willing to share that either.

noone approves ncs but we approve ngc and they approve ncs it is wrong in my opinion and hopefully thad can change that. if gd had listened to me 2 years ago we would have been more special than pcgs and ngc combined or at least made more money then we could have counted.

eye eat wheaties you should change ur nick to eat wheaties the eye is certainly missing from your posts. didnt i say i liked your post a while back? failed to eye it?

cheers

 

finally finally we have established that this did not start before 2002 soon pretty soon the final barrier will fall uncle gd youa re closer than you think

 

u will advocate toned coins at a discount one day. watch this space

 

too bad u didnt send me all your coins then since you didnt own them i might as well have. dont worry i already have a plan to own my coins forever thats right if everything falls in place no one will ever own those coins again

 

I agree with you to this point. When a coin is likely to continue to receive damage from it's environment if left alone,and you can stop it or slow it down, then by all means do it. The risk of damage from conservation must be balanced by the risk of damage from doing nothing.

 

I think we're on the same page. Minimize damage whether that requires action or NO action.