AT or NT? You be the judge!

I don't know, should he really worry or care about getting lynched? If it's a "free" market, if someone can produce gold for $50/oz or an efficient electric car that hurts oil company profits, should they care? The consumer is better off for their efforts. Of course that's assuming Thad's or anyone else's toning process really is undetectable. Now, that's my point about large premiums for toned coins being a bad investment. Based on chemistry, more can be created, flooding the market - toning is not a rarity.

 

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I have read some, and I agree that toning can be gorgeous, and good toning usually is indicative of original surfaces. I just would not want to pay for something that can be replicated in time. I know how to tone in a few years pretty well, (did it accidentally on 1986 ASE's when they came out), and I would assume fake toners would get better and better to the point that they would be indistinquishable from old toning someday. Just seems too risky.

Now, I do pay a premium sometimes for hard green patina on ancient coins. There is no way I know of to reproduce this. If I ever saw a method that could produce this in a few years, I would stop paying more for those as well.

 

I know of nobody on this forum who disputes that long ago toned coins sold for less than their untoned counterparts. The general disagreement is that the prices associated with toned coins will return to that level someday. I have explained the reasons why it is unlikely that toning premiums will ever disappear in the future many times. I have also discussed what I believe is the single biggest threat to the toned coin market many times. What I have not done is claim that toned coins have always driven a price premium.

I hope you are not including me in the "most around here" category.

 

I am very curious, do you have a link where you explained this? I am not trying to be lazy, I would just like you to show me where you think you best explain it. I really would like to hear more.

"Long ago", man makes me feel old, and I am only 41! Lol. I guess Doug and I have been around the hobby or read too much about the hobby to not be skeptical of fads, and the fact that "it never will change back". There have been just to many to many that too many people have lost serious money in.

 

Just a curious thought: is it possible that the TPG's could/would implement a set of strict rules that apply to toned coins in order for them to be considered NT? Two examples of these could be the shadow-effect below the date and stars on the Morgans or even certain colors that should not be on a coin of a particular metal?

It's obvious that they have their own guidelines at the present time - otherwise, any coin with color would be graded and never labeled with "Artificial Toning". But what about meeting specific requirements when submitting a coin with toning or rainbow colors?

 

If AT'ers get to, or are at, the point where one can't tell the difference, what's the difference if it's AT or NT? And, how can the TPG'ers or anyone else "police" what they can't determine? Granted, there is sloppy AT that is clearly identifiable AT. But if it's NT AT, how can that be detected and should we care?

 

I agree that the toners have been at it a long time. I knew of a dealer who doctored his coins then retoned them. He honestly thought he was making them better, dipping off bad toning, whizzing or scrubbing off blotches, then retoning to even out or hiding this fact. He said he "repaired" them, made them collectible. He retoned by buying old paper, (probably had higher sulphur content), and spritzing the coins in the oven with them, turning them over periodically. He probably had some other secrets as well, thats all he would tell me, wet old paper in an oven on low heat. I never bought from him, but was friendly and chatted with him a lot. He did put out a nice "product" from the drek he bought. Since we were friendly the subject of how came up. To be fair, the coins he bought were already past redemption numismatically, and back then toned coins already sold for a discount, so I never got mad at him for his actions.

This was in the 80's. I am just pointing it out to show AT achieved by and looking like NT that looks nice has been around a long time, and frequently to hide problems. His toning was very nice, he could do muted rainbow, color variations towards the center, blues, etc. The underlining coin was just problematic.

Just a warning is all. Like I said, I love color too, but am just nervous about paying a premium for it. Like religion, I try to never judge what is right and wrong to collect, its supposed to be a hobby, right?

 

Here is a quote of the relevant portion of one of my posts on this topic including a link to the associated thread. Fads are phenomenons that occur over a brief period of time. A decade is not a brief period of time. The growth of the popularity in toned coins can be directly linked to the internet and advances in digital photography. Neither of those factors are going away which means toned coins will continue to recieve widespread exposure. This is not to say that the toned coin market is not volatile and risky, it is. But the end result is that rainbow toned coins have great eye appeal and coins with great eye appeal are always in style.

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t111051-2/#ixzz0wzmFptkO

We are in the same age group and although the timeline is debateable, I consider a decade a long time ago. Fads are phenomenons that occur over a brief period of time. A decade is not a brief period of time. The growth of the popularity in toned coins can be directly linked to the internet and advances in digital photography. Neither of those factors are going away which means toned coins will continue to recieve widespread exposure. This is not to say that the toned coin market is not volatile and risky, it is. But the end result is that rainbow toned coins have great eye appeal and coins with great eye appeal are always in style.

 

Oh no! Three times in a week or so. With the exception of the debateable timeline, I have to agree with you Doug!

 

I would agree with this as well, original coins are, were, and will always be worth a premium. Tying "original" to "toned" would be a concern, since one does not mean the other. Maybe that is my confusion/concern. I own original whitish coins, and I own non original retoned coins. If you are meaning toned, original coins are worth a premium I agree. I would just hope new collectors would not get these two things confused and simply pay for "a pretty coin". Among two original coins, I would not value a toned over a white, or vice versa. That is why I bought toned when they were cheaper, and if I bought US coins I guess I would buy original white(ish) ones now.

Maybe "fad" was a wrong word, how about market preferences? The numismatic market goes in cycles, preferring gold, then old silver, then coppers, then old commemoratives, then late date proofs, etc. This goes around in circles, just like the stock market. I try to be a buyer of quality when they are "out of fashion" with the industry, holding them until they are "back in fashion". To me, I would view this like that. Problem is, I waited until they were back in fashion, but still cannot get myself to ever sell a coin.

Just curious, so is the copper market on a tone kick now too? I mean, is original red out of vogue and everyone want their sVDB's brown and toned?

 

I prefer my copper RB



I covet eye appeal and originality above all else. Remember that originality has two meanings. One means the surfaces are original and not messed with. Since this it is almost impossible to distinguish a well done AT job from an NT coin, this meaning is not as important as the second meaning. Every toned coin is unique and has an appearance all it's own. Every white coin looks like every other white coin making them very generic IMO. But adorn a coin with toning and you are left a work of art. I actually name some of my toned coins. I dubbed this Morgan Dollar "The Pink Eye Dollar".



I paid 12X the current wholesale value in 2007 and I still think I got it at a bargain price. It is loaded with eye appeal and it is completely unique (original) in appearance.

 

Please read all my posts, apparently you missed the post where I said the process is completely natural. The toning with VT is the exact same process mother nature uses to tone coins.....hydrogen sulfide. All of the H2S gas released by VT reacts with the surface leaving no chemical residue or artificial colorant. All that is left is the metallic sulfide, i.e. toning. Old school products changed coins over time because they were artificial. As they oxidized and degraded, they left behind nasty residues that damaged the surfaces and altered the color.

 

Well that is your opinion. I will say they look nice, but they do not meet my definition of eye appeal. I like the more subtle type toning. To me it ranks right above the dark black toning that hides the luster. I definetly won't say bad things about them, but I also would not purchase them for the premiums they bring. And I do like seeing your collection since your photos capture them really good.

Depends - look at Charmys IHC's. Those are very nice coins. But in the market the reds still bring more than the red browns and browns. Me - I like red brown or a brown with luster. Some IHC's have a flat brown look. To me and my opinion only - I do not like red large cents or indian head cents. It is just a personal taste.

 

I think the toning is envelope toning for sure.

 

YAY!!! Finally - I found a smart guy... You sir are officially my new hero. Stay true to your course. While I question your method and results. I think it is a smart idea. I am assuming that this product is to be used on copper coins that have already been cleaned or dipped ?

AT vs NT is such funny debate in my eyes. The only difference between the two is amount of time and or concentration that a coin is exposed to. Certainly everyone knows that the colors that you see on any toned coin is produced from a reaction of the metal in the coin and whatever/whichever "contaminant(s)" it was exposed to? While it is argued that NT produces a more appealing coin - that clearly falls under the category that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" Frankly I wish all coins were proof like. I think a whizzed coin is really pretty. Am I right or wrong? Neither! What I like to collect is all that matters. BTW - I am an avid collector of cleaned/dipped pennies. I pay good money for them. I want them, I like them, I search for them. It's what I collect. Call me weird, I don't care!

IMHO this whole issue is driven by TPG services who will say that a dipped, cleaned, altered surface, damaged, scratched coin has no value. I think that is silly. Why do they put a value on circulated coins? What is the difference? None IMO. An AT coin is a circulated coin albeit maybe circulated in a fumigated jar of hydrogen sulfide! Circulated none the less. Coins should be graded for their details - plus notes, There is no difference in a coin exposed to Sulfur over 20 years or 20 seconds.

I am a newbie here.. I seem to remember seeing somewhere that this forum doesn't automatically size pics. Guess I gotta learn somewhere.

Hey GoodThad, here is my Naturally Toned (on my desk) 1921 Lincoln.

 

Well before TPGing companies existed, in the market place a cleaned, altered surface, damaged or scratched coin had a diminished value just as it does today. TPGing company's had nothing to do with that. It is what people want to spend their money on and they want to spend it on a original coin more.

 

Now for fun . Who doesn't like a good ol' sacrificial offering to the great TPG in the sky?

First we need a sacrificial lamb. Hmmmm I know! Grandma like to keep all her things polished like shiny new including her birth year. Grandma, forgive me, you knew not what you were doing. You destroyed any value your birth year penny might have had. SO if you don't mind - I'd like to give Ol' Abe a suntan. I know, I know it's just so pretty, but believe it or not, this shiny penny makes grown men mad. They say you ruined it.

Bring the worthless defective lamb to the alter!

Hence the lamb..............



Hmmmmm .. MS63RD Maybe I should list this baby on eBay and get 3 or 4 bills for it. Nope can' t do that, it would be unethical. So, time to prepare the alter, time to get the tools ready for the slow, yet painless sacrifice.

Preparing Tools and The Alter:




First - We lightly wash the lamb in soap and rinse with cold water, while carefully adhering to the ritual of not touching the subject to be sacrificed.

Next - We douse the lamb with a highly flammable toxic solvent to make sure the lamb is free of all impurities thereby making sure it is as pure as the day it was born.

Now.. The sacrifice begins. first is to torture the little bugger by suspending it a noxious amount of NH3 fumes for 30 minutes or just until the lamb starts to turn blue..



Okay this is getting silly. Yes - no? Should I continue? Who wants to see the rest of the sacrifice?



To be continued: