For all you Prez dollar and SAC PCGS variety collectors

Below is a letter from Don Willis president of PCGS about the ongoing review of the Prez and Sac dollar varieties that are graded and attributed by PCGS.

As a registry set collector of both sets, I have a few thoughts about this. Prior to 2009, the prez dollar registry set required you to collect both P&D mint marks in both A & B orientation. So each year, one could expect at least 4 coins per president or 16 coins for the entire year. Also, prior to 2009 PCGS had identified at least 3 varieties in the Prez dollar series. These usually were No Edge lettering or Double Edge lettering or some sort of variety. The average collector could put together a very nice graded set for not much money. By not having the 3 known varieties it didn't bother you all that much because only a few people had them and the chances of you getting one meant that you hit the lottery or were just plain lucky.

Then 2009 hit and now you had the SAC dollar or more appropriately called the Native American dollar series which the edge lettering was begun. All of a sudden you had an explosion of varieties that PCGS was attributing at a staggering rate that even the best collectors of the series were having a heck of a time keeping up with. The funny thing was that none of these varieties had anything to do with the dies themselves but rather the edge inscription process. You had the weak edge letter variety, partial edge letter variety, no edge letter variety along with the standard/normal edge lettering coin. On top of all that you had to find these in both P & D mint marks and A & B edge orientation. WOW! How exhausting! What a turn off. All of a sudden collectors were dropping tons of money to buy these coins from the handful of collectors who had found them. On top of that, these dealers had seemingly convinced PCGS that they ought to attribute these coins and add them to the registry list. I never agreed with this, but as a lowly collector, what am I to do but to stop collecting these coins which I love. Then unbelievably, the varieties found in the Prez dollar series started to double. Oh Oh, we are in trouble now.

So now here we are in 2010. The new mint sets were released and I am sure PCGS is being swamped with all these coins coming in wanting to be attributed as these new varieties. It must be overwhelming for PCGS....all that money that they are making that is! But they have started to do the right thing....albeit a couple years late.

As a collector of many series of coins, I welcome all new varieties and finds. This is what makes our hobby exciting and keeps it going. But someone needs to stop and draw a line as to what really is a "variety" and what is crap. I collect the Eisenhower Dollars, and as any IKE collector will tell you, the varieties are out there and new ones are being found everyday. The question then becomes, what varieties do we accept as collectors and which ones do we pass on. This is being debated every day in the IKE series. But I can tell you this, there are many many IKE varieties worthy of attribution over a weak edge Native American Dollar any day.

I can't sit here and tell you what should be acceptable and what shouldn't be, but I can say that there needs to be some general collector consensus as to what should be included in a registry set. Let the collectors decided. We are the ones putting these sets together.

PCGS has put a hold on attributing any more of these coins and at this point is not removing any coins from the sets either. Personally, I don't mind having edge varieties in the series, but let them be true edge varieties such as the No Edge Lettering or Double Edge lettering instead of the Weak Edge lettering or Partial Edge lettering because that is crap. What is next....weak die strikes from full die strike varieties??? I hope PCGS goes back and removes these from the registry lists and lets get back to really collecting the varieties that are truely important.


A few weeks ago we updated you on our ongoing review of coins that are recognized by PCGS and are included in the PCGS Registry program. One series that we mentioned was Presidential dollars. In particular we have been reviewing the status of the various edge varieties.
We are continuing to review the Presidential dollar varieties as well as varieties of Native American dollar. As part of our review we have been consulting with various industry experts as well as our own internal staff. We have not reached a final decision but we wanted to give you an update on where things stood.
We have decided that while this issue is being researched, and until we reach a final decision, PCGS will no longer recognize any of the various edges for Presidential or Native American Dollars as unique varieties. This includes Position A and Position B coins. No new varieties will be added to the Registry sets although all coins previously recognized as varieties will remain as part of the set composition. Coins submitted for grading under previously recognized varieties will not be graded as such pending our final decision.
We thank you for your support.
Best wishes,
Don Willis
President, PCGS

 

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Here's my take on this.

Varieties come in two different types. Die varieties (which would include doubled dies and design changes) and Die State Varieties (which would include die changes due to abrading and clashing).

Examples of Die Varieties would include the popular doubled dies such as 1955/55 Lincoln, 1974-D Kennedy, etc.
Examples of Die State Varieties would include certain PegLeg IKE's and Bugs Bunny Franklins.

In 2007, the US Mint introduced the third die which is the edge lettering. That lettering can be imparted to the coin either weakly, partially and not at all. The not at all could be due to mechanical pressure or the coin not passing through the machine at all. Edge Lettering is NOT new and neither are the varieties associated with it. There have been double Edge lettered coins as well as weak and partial edge lettered coins in the past but I don't think the collecting community was aware of it until these presidential dollars came out.

I am fully in favor of adopting the missing/weaki/partial varieties for the presidential dollars since it adds a little flair to an otherwise boring coin series but, PCGS needs to be explicit on defining these varieties. I cannot begin to tell how much I've wasted over the years until I finally got confirmation on what constituted what!

As for PCGS's current position, I can tell you that it is SPECIFICALLY related to definition (and a little frustration). A collector, who shall remain unnamed, began finding all kinds of double edge lettered coins. These were VERY low population coins which he was able to get included in the Complete Variety Set registry.

Early this year, he offered some excess coins for sale and a well know collector purchased one. After the collector received the coin, he examined it only to find that it was NOT a double Edge Lettering Overlapped coin but a coin which had "slipped" in the edge lettering machine enough so that the lettering overlapped itself. PCGS had attributed the coin as Doubled Edge Lettering when in fact it was not. It was "overlapped" edge lettering but not Doubled.

The coin, for which a hefty price was paid, was sent to PCGS for examination. The results of the examination is still pending but more than one of these was sold and the very existance of this misattribution has brought all the doubled edge lettering varieties into question. It's not a pretty picture and there is a LOT of money involved all over a simple definition. There are also a lot of "unknown" owners of these misattributed coins which, having paid a lot of money for them, will eventually want someone to pay for the misattribution!

In other words, lettering which overlaps itself due to machine slippage does in fact look doubled and by an inexperienced collector "could" be called doubled Edge Lettering Overlapped. However, the experienced collector knows otherwise since a true doubled edge lettering coin should have passed through the lettering machine twice. These coins obviously have not.

So, who's on the hook for the lost money? PCGS or the seller that sold improperly attributed varieties?

My guess is that PCGS is absolutely defining what these varieties are to avoid future mishaps. BTW, how this stuff got by the graders is a mystery to me but readers must understand that some submitters can be quite persistent and persuasive. I happen to know the submitter of these coins and he's quite convinced that they are Double Edged Lettering coins and will not consider anything else. After all, PCGS attributed them right?

As for PCGS's stance, I don't blame them one bit but I must confess that I am irritated since I have a lot of money tied up in these coins. For them to NOT attribute any new varieties is kind of a blessing for those folks who only want to collect the basic coins but there are folks out there that want the basics plus the varieties. I know that with each batch I get, the first thing I look at is the edge lettering.

It should be stated that it is PCGS's decision as to what coins get included in what sets. This would not be the first time that a variety got dropped or included in a set where a majority of the collectors of that set weren't a little peaved. The SMS Kennedy is required for the Complete Kennedy Variety set which is kind of a head scratcher since it's not even the same class of coin and really belongs in the Proof/SMS Registry but there's no arguing that position with PCGS.

So, at this point in time, we all just have to sit and wait to find out what's going to happen. I'm hoping that the edge lettering varieties that are true error's/varieties are allowed to stay. Specifically "true" doubled edge lettering coins (Adams) and the Missing Edge Lettering coins. Weak and partial are ok but truth betold, any weak edge lettering coin could turn to partial after a couple years of circulation.

We just have to wait and see.

 

I will admit that I do not have much to add. This post is very intersting, especially for those like myself who collect those, "boring and ugly golden dollars," so I applaud the previous two posters. I admit that I will eagerly wait until the series is over to collect any varieties (definitionally set by myself as anything related abnormally to the planchet by the die) because I'm sure what constitutes a variety will constantly change until then. As for the strength of the edge lettering strike-BS I say! I will agree with jaceravone in that we don't have weak/partial strike designations for the other two sides so why do it for the edge? It is sad, if I'm reading this correctly, that PCGS is attributing so many varieties for the purpose of making money and collectors are losing cash over the endeavor. All the more reason I don't collect based on grading company or slab.

 

Since I am not a participant in any Registry program anywhere, I will try to keep my comments brief.

I'm glad to hear that they have finally found the lid for the can of worms.

Chris