Very Big Scam

Absolutely considered that (see post #26), but the only way to prove it is to buy it and receive a fake. Would you like to volunteer as the guinea pig?

 

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So you do admit that there is some circumstantial evidence- "interesting circumstances"- supporting (not proving, just supporting) the claim that these are likely a fake?

 

aimzb, did you read this?

 

You posted this just after my bedtime and I missed this. You need to read http://pages.ebay.com/coverage/index.html. What you sited USED to be their policy, but that changed some time ago (when they required electronic payments) and again the beginning of this year. You do not get what you think you should, you get your money back.

Again, that is quoted straight from the listing you sited. There are no conditions on that. Read it!

 

I did. But, you freely admitted that at least some of the circumstances I mentioned are "interesting" (no argument as to their validity or factuality) and therefore admitted they are not hearsay.
You therefore admitted to their circumstantial support of the claim that the coins may be a fake. Again, nothing proved at all other than there is some circumstantial evidence supporting (again, not proving)
the claim that the coins are fake.

And for the record, I am not arguing against your initial statements that there is no way to prove that these are fake. I agree with that. You just seem to be awefully convinced they are real
despite plenty of circumstantial evidence to the contrary.

 

You need to look up the definition of hearsay. It is any evidence you get from someone else. If you did not do it, it is hearsay and is therefore evidence not admitted in any court. The only exception to this is testimony sworn to in court. (I am sure someone can argue some specifics, but that is a quick summary.)

Just as a for instance why this kind of evidence is not admissible; Can you prove to me that someone has not hijacked 10cheetah2009's account and posted this as a scam? Far fetched? Not really. Someone did it to me and listed a motorcycle on my account. What anyone has to gain, I have no clue. But they did it. Translation; If you saw him make the listing and post it, that is evidence. The fact that it is on his site is only evidence that it is there - not where it came from, why it is there, who put it there, or anything of the kind.

BTW, this is why there is so much trouble proving who stole/is using you id, proving who hijacked such and such account, who broke into this or that account, who is sending viruses, etc. and so on.

 

Well, it's a little easier these days to trace ones online activity than most believe, especially with the advent of Homeland Security. By tracing one's ULR, the Feds could be knocking on your door within an hour of your online activity. One problem with that is many stolen accounts or illegal activity is traced to foreign countries, ones that do not cooperate with the US.

 

Can it be done - ABSOLUTELY!. Can the government do it - yes, but with difficulty. Can a common citizen do it - my guess is no one can do it without subpoena powers.

 

Probably true, but with Homeland Security, it's a lot easier. Even if a large dollar gold transaction isn't fraudulent, it could get the attention of HS under the guise of financing terrorism.

 

Translation; You agree with me that no one here (at least not that I am aware of) can prove 10cheetah2009 has done anything, let alone that is has stole pictures or that he is running any kind of a scam.

 

Well, I don't know if anyone can prove it or not. I agree, he may not be guilty. But, I also believe there's enough to look into it further. There is a point when all the circumstantial evidence adds up to the point where the "smell test" isn't passed and law enforcement goes looking for the "smoking gun".

 

Just because he is disagreeing with you about the surety of this being a scam does not in any way mean he is convinced the coins are real and in fact he said he probably agrees that there may be something fishy going on, he is simply saying there is not solid proof, just circumstantial aspects of this seller that might raise red flags to any cautious buyer. I have not seen anything from him where he said anything even close, or even insinuated, that he was 'convinced they are real'.

If I had any advice to any user on eBay it would be...yes...you are on your own. Protect yourself and don't worry about others. If it looks even CLOSE to fishy, don't buy it. I used to post warnings and try to get postings pulled and scan that site all the time. I can tell you eBay DOES pull scammers if they can with reasonable protection from backlash from the seller. But more than likely you are just joe blow contacting them, they don't know you, they don't know what you know, they are not coin experts (or experts for all the other collectables people sell there from just pictures) so don't expect them to treat your missive as marching orders just because you inform them you think its a scam. It might get pulled, it might not...and believe it or not I have gotten plenty pulled until I realized life is short and eBay has always been buyer beware and watch your own butt because there is never going to be a reasonable expectation that others are watching it for you. I like eBay, Its a big market place selling a huge variety of things but eBay cannot catch it all and to be honest...I don't want some clerk at eBay who knows nothing about coins trying to make judgment calls about something they know nothing about or simply taking Joe Blows word for it. Nor do I want them paying a thousand experts to verify everything being sold there as I want the fees and hassles to stay as low as possible. People will rail on about the scammers and why eBay doesn't catch them all, then they will rail about fees going up.

You have reasonable protection and assurances you will get your money back through the electronic payment. That's all I think should be given. You buy, you get it, its not right, send it back and get your money back. In a case like this, buyer be very wary, use common sense...look for the red flags that are, as pointed out, all over this seller and his wares. IMO, in this case, best case is the seller cant make a sell and moves on.

 

No doubts there is "enough to look into it further". That is why I called eBay. That is why I reported it.

However, the op makes statements such as "the photo is stolen"; "Look at this auction to find the actual owner of the coin"; "10cheetah2009 is selling a coin that he doesn't own or have in his/her possession"; "The buyer will never receive anything"; "these very expensive frauds"; "he is demonstrably dishonest"; etc. Not one of these statements does he have a whit of admissible evidence for. Further, IMHO, were the OP sued for libel by 10cheetah2009, he would lose - that is assuming they could prove who Pandacollector and that he is the one who posted here although civil courts are somewhat looser with evidence rules.

 

Interesting!! Something's in the air!

 

A small addendum to this. All 3 of his listings are now gone - removed by eBay.

 

Victory!!!

Yes, that is a fine line many cross - that is accusing someone of something too soon. Their statements claim something is positively so before anything is proven, when what they should have said is, based on this, this and this it APPEARS that.....

 

Our friend Mr. Cheetah also sold one other item this month. Here is a link and please note the shipping cost: http://cgi.ebay.com/1922-NO-D-CENT-PENNY-BIG-BONUS-/260646104961?pt=Coins_US_Individual

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com/

 

He also HAD 2 more of those for sale this afternoon. My guess is that eBay is taking care of everything. If you approach them with evidence (i.e. shipping 30 day after receiving cleared payment), they are very responsive.

 

Rim's Cents,
Your advice in taking care about how I phrase my comments is graciously accepted. I would like to add that I also have other unpublished confirmation from Mr. aldergold that establishes that he took all of the original photos and that he is in current possession of the coin in the photos. It has always been my impression that the truth is a valid defense but if that is no longer the case I certainly yield to your legal experience.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

 

Mr. Pindicollector,

"unpublished confirmation from Mr. aldergold that establishes that he took all of the original photos" that is by definition hearsay. :dead-horse: BTW, even if notorized, it is still hearsay. :dead-horse: See post #46 :dead-horse:. Since suing is done in civil court, some might let you get away with that, but very few, I suspect. In most, Mr. aldergold must appear where he can be examined and cross examined under oath :dead-horse:. Until then, what you have is called hearsay. :dead-horse: