fully struck Capped Bust Half ?

Hey there playahs,

As you know some of these hot-shot noo-miss-mah-tists can get purty technical when it comes to the exact definition of terms like "full bands", "full head", etc. Many of those terms pertain directly to strike more than any other factor.

So I'm a-gonna throw down a Capped Bust half for ya and you tell me if it's a fully struck coin. Complicating this little game - it's an AU58, so there is some detail missing due to wear. Or is it ?

All of this is in honor of a very enlightening article in this month's John Reich Collector's Society Journal about full strikes on Bust Halves. That article focused on several key areas :

OBVERSE

• front drapery in front of her ... well, you know.
• hair
• clasp
• most importantly - all thirteen stars

REVERSE

• arrow shafts into arrow heads
• talons
• feathers
• motto E PLURIBUS UNUM and scroll

As always, comments of all sorts welcomed, particularly about strike and die state.

 

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See, this is the kind of AU-64 slider that many of us would love more than the beat up MS-63/64/65. I think the coin is just glowing with luster and the sharpness of the strike is almost perfect. The barest of faint weakness on the middle talon of the right (as we look at it). Most commonly I see weakness there and on the scroll usually around the letters LURI.

 

Can you explain that to me? I've never heard of something in "AU-64." I thought AU went to 58 and MS went from 60-70.

 

That was just a typo... bq was up late again.

 

Actually I dont think it was a typo.. I took it for what he said.. While there are no AU grades above 58 I tend to agree with BQ.. I have seen alot of AU58 coins far nicer (eye appeal) than MS60-63.... Hence his assessment on the AU64..

Now to the OP.. I do think this coin falls into what BQ states.. Yes, it does have a tiny rub, making it fall in the realm of circulated. WHY? because it was! With that being said, in my eyes, the coin is graded correctly (however, I would venture to say that it would bring in MS money if the person buying it seen it in hand and knew what they were doing. Strong STRONG, coin..

 

I am basically a non coin collector for this period of coins but I love that coin, it is truly incredible. I feel like trying to get a bust half right now.

 

Agreed No as for the stars, Though what caught my eye first is the denticle below the 1 MPD?

 

It is a good strike, but not fully struck. I always check the PLUR of Pluribus first, since this to me seems the weakest section of any strike due to coin design. I own one example where this is fully struck, its the only example I ever saw when I collected them. So yeah, a fully struck example is extremely rare due to the design. Yours is quite nice though. I have come nice AU examples with LUR completely missing, that is how bad the coin design was, metal flow wise.

Reeded edge examples do come fully struck though, so don't pay extra for them.

 

Take the cut off the cheek and this would be a perfect coin in my opinion. Granted the rub's are there, but it sure is sweet. Personally I think it comes close enough to be considered fully struck - with the rub through the hair you can still see the details. My only concern is the the 7 star and the top of the cap - that looks like it is a little weak in that area versus wear. On the reverse the only thing I really noticed was around the first T in states(including PLUR) and the 0 in 50 C. All of the details are there just not as raised or bold as the rest of the coin. Beauty of a coin.

 

I don't have one handy, but what is the obverse design opposite of the PLUR? Is it the bust or shoulder?? That area is so systematically bad that it has to be a large area on the obverse taking all of the metal flow. I guess I never grabbed a coin and check what area it was flowing to.

 

Long story. Basically he's saying that an AU58 can surpass the eye appeal of a mint state coin - and often does.

IMHO, the AU scale should go all the way up to 69. An tiny rub on an otherwise perfect 70 coin should drop it to 69, not all the way to 58 (below crummy 61 coins).

 

IMO, this coin is early die state. I have a theory that there is a tendency for better strike to accompany earlier die state, since there should be less die warpage. In addition, it's more likely the presses are in optimal adjustment with the dies freshly prepped and installed.

That's the reason I keep fishing for die state comments.

Any thoughts ?

 

Yes.

Yes, T2 bothered me a bit as well. I'll look closer later today - it's possible that's a die characteristic - perhaps T2 was weakly punched. Dunno. Yet.

 

I have seen thousands of these. The weak T is related to metal flow that also affects PLUR. The whole area is just short of metal, so short of an exceptional strong or double strike, simply cannot strike up. I would seriously doubt it was a weak punch, since this diagnostic is the same for all dates in the series. Go to HA.com or another type site and look at all of their bust halves, the area is the same for all of them. If you see one with a complete strike there, I bet it would be associated with a high price.

Still a beautiful coin man, and an above average strike and early die state.

 

I have always advocated that US coins go to ancient coin grading rationale, (part of the reason I collect ancients now). The DETAIL of the coin should be all that matters, and accept the fact some coins left the mint as XF or even VF. All that should matter is the % of design showing, whether it is wear, soft strike, worn die, etc. We are coin collectors, not mint production personnel, so all we care about is how much detail that we want remains, regardless of the cause.

I agree 100%, and have many AU coins I would not even consider trading for a MS62.

 

Detail 1-60 / Condition 1-10

Let the market decide whether a 58/8 is worth more than a 60/3.

Or better yet,

In a digital age, perhaps this:

New Detail (0-9) = Old Detail

0 = Basal
1 = Fair
2 = AG
3 = G
4 = VG
5 = F
6 = VF
7 = XF
8 = AU
9 = MS

New Condition (0-9)

New parameters for strike and post mint damage from whatever source apply.

99 becomes the Old MS-70. 90 becomes the old MS-60. But now we have the condition scale for the grades with wear.

In this example, I'd call it an 88. Then we have to disconnect the price from the scale since high condition coins would often be more valuable than lower condition coins of the next grade or two.

 

How about just make a new system grading the level of detail remaining on the coin versus a perfect example? Does it matter to you if the missing hair detail was caused by a worn die, soft strike, or slight wear? That is what I do not understand, why it matters. There seems to be an arbitrary cut off point at MS 60. The market shows that, making a 58 worth more than a 60, but does that making any dang sense to anyone? Do away with AU and BU, and call it XF+ and FDC, while keeping numerical grades. Then what is now an AU58 could be a FDC 63 or 64, and a current 60 could be a 53.

 

No matter what you come up with it will not make everyone happy. Everything I have seen posted just brings up more issues or different issues. Nothing is simple. As it is the market can decide right now if an AU58 is worth more than a 63.

 

A really beatiful AU - 64 , better looking than 99% of AU-58s and most MS-63s . Good post .
rzage