My Beef with Grading Companys....

Let me start by saying Ive only been collecting for about a year now.
I obviously dont know how to spot ms69s or pf70s yet, which is one of the reasons I decided to become a member of ngc. I had to first purchase a membership before I submited any coins. This I can somewhat understand, most grading co. do.
Heres my beef....
I love looking at coins for errors and imperfections. Im getting better at spotting them, but still am very new to this and dont know every error and variety yet. My main reason for purchasing a membership was to submit coins I thought might be ..errors.
I found out today..that if you dont pay extra for them to look for errors....ngc will not grade them as such! So basically, if you submit a coin for grading,and it has an error on it that you dont see...ngc will not grade it as an error!! What a sham!!
I send coins away for grading because...Im not an expert!
They should charge me the extra $10 after they find the error!!
I cant tell you how many error coins I THINK ..I have.
But I refuse to pay extra for every coin to get ...specifically looked at for errors.
The experts are taking advantage!!
I wonder how many beginners and children are getting shafted by these grading companys?

 

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Howard,

Unfortunately, you should have read the submission instructions more carefully on the back. There are many people who don't choose to pay the extra $10, and if NGC had to call every time someone didn't check all of the correct boxes for additional services, they would likely not get the work done in a reasonable turnaround time.

The instructions also state that you are charged the "Error" fee whether there is one or not, and that is because it requires additional research and/or examination to determine if it is truly an error. The graders are not looking at coins for errors, and each grader has to examine thousands of coins every week. They are only examining it to determine grade unless the submitter has checked "Mint Error" under Services on the submission form.

Chris

 

I had no form to look at when I purchased a membership.
I just think if the coins are being examined for grade..by an expert..that expert should notice an error if there was one, and they should document it as such. Then Id be happy to pay the 10$ error fee...Id even perhaps pay a little more for not noticing myself.
To grade the coin...notice an error..and not document it as such, is just wrong.
At least thats my belief? Call me crazy
Thanks again Chris!

 

The solution is really simple. Since there ara already about 100 grading companies, just start your own too. NO, you don't have to know anything about grading and many of those 100 also don't know anything but sure are having fun and making money. Jump on the band wagon, so to speak.
Then you could also start your own grading system. For example all error coins could be graded by you with GE-4 for Good Error, FE-12 for Fine Error, etc. Now if you do this and make a fortune, don't forget to send me checks for my suggestion.

 

Should have bought a ANA membership than you get ANA perks with direct submitting privileges with NGC

 

The same information is provided for online submissions.

Purchasing the membership and submitting coins are two different things.

http://www.ngccoin.com/services/services.asp

Chris

 

Unfortunately, it's pretty much buyer beware out there. Are the TPG'ers gouging collectors? Definitely. Are many dealers integrity challenged? Definitely. I guess, short of the market taking care of the problem, if the dollars at stake are big enough, it would be worth suing.

 

Look, if you think all of the grading services are gouging everyone, then why don't you do as Carl suggested and start your own grading service. We'd all love to know, straight from the horse's mouth, how easy it is to run a successful grading service that undercuts everyone's prices and provides excellent customer service.

Chris

 

The TPGs are paid for their time and expertise just like all people in all walks of life. That's not a sham; it's perfectly reasonable.

One must understand the enormous volume of coins running through a TPG every day. It's unreasonable for a grader to spot micro-varieties as all those coins fly by; the submitter must request variety analysis and expect to pay extra - both time and money.

Similar story with errors, with at least one major difference - I would expect that some errors are more difficult to verify that's it's genuine Mint error and not some bozo with a sledge hammer playing games, so I think it's more difficult to authenticate some errors.

 

To the OP, the real answer is to educate yourself. I know its a lot to learn, but knowledge is the real foundation of this hobby. If you lack it, you will be fleeced every which way by the sharks, and maybe get so mad that you leave numismatics. With superior knowledge, you can fleece the sharks and have the upper hand.

How many numismatic books do you own? They are the best investment you can make if you read them. How many shows have you went to and handled endless coins? Seeing in person as many real coins and real erros will give you the baseline knowledge to seriously collect.

I understand your post was about TPG services and their policies, but you should never rely on them to tell you it is an error, etc. You should know already, and you are simply having them slabbed for preservation, sale, or whatever reason you choose.

 

Thank god other industries don't work like this. Commerce would come to a screeching halt. If I get on a plane to JFK I should have a reasonable expectation that it lands there. If my doctor says I have cancer it is reasonable to expect it is cancer and not appendicitis. If I buy a coin I should have a reasonable expectation that it grades as advertised.

I'm not saying that the buyer has no obligation, but you are implying the buyer has all while the dealer has none. I'm not saying dealers should be expected to grade their coins with perfect accuracy but yes they do have a responsibility to ensure the product they sell is the product they advertise, just like every other business does. Without a shared responsibility by both parties things quickly devolve to an Ebay like market.

 

I hate to tell you this, but most businesses operate that way. Listen to an ad on TV some time. Ever talk to a used car salesman?

BTW, that plane to JFK was supposed to land on time. Did it? Odds are fair that it did not. Don't start me on the medicine. They were supposed to get rid of my cancer without giving me pneumonia. They did not succeed.

 

One other thing I would point out is that grades evolved as a mere descriptor of the level of preservation of a coin. There are no legal parameters of a grade. It is merely a way of trying to communicate a degree of preservation. In the old days they were important to accurately grade because advertisements did not have photos, therefor the grade was the way the seller could communicate the quality level of the coin to the buyer. If, when received, the buyer did not agree, he sent the coin back. Today, with photos it is much easier to show the person the coin, (assuming no hidden damage), and have them buy or not buy. No grade is needed except to help the buyer get an idea of how much they should pay. In person, the seller lets you inspect the coin. There is absolutely no recourse from the dealer from calling it whatever he likes. You saw the coin, you knew what it was, and if the dealer called it a XF and it was really a F, well you should have known that since you inspected it personally.

The comparisons you make are not the same, in this example the dealer showed you the coin, and then gave it to you when purchased. Same as an airline, you buy a seat and they flew you there. That is the true comparison. If you bought the coin sight unseen and disagreed with the grade, then I would agree you should have the right to send it back.

 

RLM,
Yes, most actually do. For every every transaction you have with a business where they do not provide what was advertised I bet you have many multiplies of times where things went as expected. The reason you don't feel that way is because a satisfactory transaction is expected and doesn't stick in the memory like dealing with the used car salesman did.

BTW, 72% of arrivals to JFK this year have been on time.

 

The breaking point in this analogy is coin grading is subjective, whereas "did I land at JFK ?" is not. One is an opinion, and thus debatable; the other is discrete, clear, unambiguous, and beyond dispute.

All reasonable people understand that the seller has a great deal of responsibility. There are many rock-solid ethical coin dealers who stand behind their sales 100%.

One must understand how important trust is in this business. Big, big deals are done on a handshake and a smile. Reputation is vitally important. One must establish credibility with 100% reliability. It's awfully tough to repair a damaged reputation. Yes, there are some hustlers. Deal with the right peeps, avoid the hosers.

 

Let's see. 72% on time means 28% not on time. I wonder what percent of unc coins sold by reputable dealers were actually AU. Were I guessing, even though grading and reputable are both very subjective, they equaled or better the 72%. Still, neither business has "come to a screeching halt". The last time I heard the statistics, used car dealers were about the reverse of your statistics. Even they have not "come to a screeching halt".

 

That's certainly very reasonable.

But here's the rub.... not all coins of a given grade are created equal.

Hypothetical case : let's pick 20 Lincoln Cents graded MS65RB. You look at 'em and I guarantee you will prefer some over the others.... even though they are the "same" grade. So let's say you arrange them in order from favorite to least favorite.

The next guy comes along, looks at the same coins, and has very different preferences and favorites ! He'll rank in a very different order.

Worst of all... if you returned the next day and looked at the same coins, it's quite likely you would shuffle the order quite a bit !

Grading is subjective. When a dealer says a raw coin is XF45, that's their opinion. Buyer may or may not agree. Pass or play.

 

Fine, Then 72% of the coins that the hypothetical dealer has marked as BU will come back from the TPG as BU. The others will be AU/problem coins since that % seems to satisfy your level of fairness.

Your examples are incredibly bad. I am stunned that you would use the airline industry to prove your point. So you purchase a ticket for a direct flight from Phila to Las Vegas and pay extra to avoid the connecting flight. Two days prior to your departure, you get an e-mail telling you that your direct flight has been cancelled and that you must land in Pheonix and catch a connecting flight to Vegas. You get to Pheonix and are delayed 6 hours due to mechanical problems. When you go to the desk to complain, they asked if your flight to Vegas is a connecting flight. You answer no, Vegas is my final destination. The respond by telling you that they can't speak with you right now because 95% of the people on the flight have a connecting flight which needs to be addressed and those people have priority.

Or maybe you are returning from the Virgin Islands and you get to the airport and find that they simply cancelled your flight all together. Yes, these are both true stories. I have a major problem about every 5th flight I take. I don't see the airline industry coming to a screeching halt.

How many people died this year because they were given the wrong dosage/wrong medicine in the hospital?

Here is my take on the hypothetical situation that Doug mentioned. Discerning the difference between AU and BU can be tricky. Unless you have proof that the dealer knew the coin was AU and sold it as BU, you would not have a valid complaint. Otherwise, the BU grade is simply his opinion of the grade. Every dealer I know uses the disclaimer that their grade is an opinion only and will not guarantee that their grade will match that of a TPG. It is the responsibility of the collector to assess the accuracy of the opinion offered by the coin dealer. If they are unable to do so, then they should not be buying raw coins.

I am so tired of everyone in the world blaming others for their mistakes. Caveat Emptor should rule the business world.