1909-S Indian Cent "fakes"

Anyone have photo's or links to photo's of counterfit US Indian Head 1909-s Cents?

Long story short, before I send in my VF to a gradeing service I want to double check my suspicion that I think the coin I have had for 20 years is not the coin I think it is.

I just bought the 4 books series by Rick Snow on Indian cents to search my collection for die varieties which I have not done before. Lo and behold the S mint mark on my 1909 looks uncomfortably odd to me (insert bang head on desk).

So before I spend the money sending in the coin only to have it bounce back to me as I guess an encapsulated official "fake", I want to double check my fears.

I attached some photo's If anyone want to take a stab.

 

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The S does look a bit chubby and flat along the bottom. Are the trumpet end of the S parallel?

 

No, the trumpet ends look slightly rounded not flat like those on my 1908-S that I just compaired them with.

I keep trying to convince myself that the S is the way it is becuase of wear.

If this is a fake what thows me is why copy a VF or XF coin? There are contact marks and the coins is far from perfect.

 

Good point.

I think I am going to rooooolllll the dice and send it in to a gradeing service. I'll report back what I find. (fingers crossed).

Thanks!

 

im thinking it might be a fake, look at the bottom arrowhead, it should be pointing to the middle of the nub on the rim. yours points inbetween, I could be way wrong though. also the S looks fat on the top left portion of it, and the tail feathers seem off from design, but could be wear.

 

I would recommend taking it to a couple of local coin shops and get their opinions. That way you're not losing $$$ just to find out if the coin is authentic.

IMO, the S doesn't look right; almost like a reversed 2, and I wouldn't gamble without getting opinions from professionals who could view the coin in hand.

-LTB

 

Kinda hard to tell from those pictures. A larger close up of mm area would help. If you have Snow's Attribution guide 2nd edition vol 4, he offers some good insights concerning mm position and details in the nearby denticles. If you don't have it, let me know and later when I have more time, I'll fill you in.
Is the edge beveled or square? If square, no good.

 

Here is a a closer view of the S

I need to get a better shot of it.

 

That S does look kind of fat and squished up compared to mine. Oh - and if it is real that coin will grade XF at a tpg.

 

I just took a peek at several and I did see one with a fat "S", but it looks nothing like yours. Only one way to find out...

 

Looks like a counterfeit. If you can post more detailed pics it might be easier to confirm. Yeah the mint mark looks a little fishy... and the first feather looks like it has full details-- and thats not good.

If I were you I would mail it to Rick Snow at EERC to verify its authenticity before sending it off to PCGS or NGC.

 

Here's a couple links for authentication.

http://www.bakercoins.net/learn/articles/09s.ind/09s.ind.html

http://www.bakercoins.net/learn/articles/09s.ind.counter/09s.ind.counter.html

 

The mintmark looks like a reversed 2, rather than an S. Nonetheless, if it's a fake, it's a shockingly good one.

 

WOW!? Does Rick really look at coins for you?? That would be fantastic. I have registered on his web site. So I will try and send an e-mail to see if he will do so.

THanks!!!!!

 

Okay, gonna be the dissenter here... I say it's authentic, and I think it will go XF with NGC... Surely you will post when you get a final result, yes?


B

 

you bet I will!

 

I was all set to go with Authentic and took an old Large Cent approach.

I found an Authentic 1909-S for comparison. As far as I know, all 1909-S Indians have a single MM location and if I'm wrong about that, than disregard this.



Please note the distance above the denticles and the location of the MM verses the denticles as extended.



Now this is a bit fuzzy, but note the distance on the subject coin is closer to the denticle and the S is closer to the break between denticles than the comparison coin.

I therefore have to go with either Fake or a new MM location.

 

pascomark, you in pasco washington?

 

OK. Now I'm really intrigued. I checked out Heritage archives and found nothing resembling your coin; BUT, I did see several of the high grade examples with a suggestion of an earlier MM to the SSW which would put it near the MM location of your coin.

Now it's possible that the lighting was playing tricks, but now the level of uncertainty grows.