1804 dollar: Copy, fake, or counterfeit?

Just acquired this slug (cheaply, fully aware of it being un-genuine) and have a few issues for the forum, if you please:

The 'pimples' above her head in the word LIBERTY (and various other places) suggest a cast origin, but the (reeded!) edge shown no sign of a seam. The obverse is not well centered in the coin, and the reverse isn't 'clocked' accurately to the obverse. The weight at 22.3 gm and diameter at 37.9 mm complete the specifications. There are MANY other indicators of the suspect nature of this coin, obvious upon cursory examination even to one with as little experience as myself.

My question is: do any of you have opinion or knowledge of whether this was made before the requirement for 'COPY' to appear (I do not know when that was), and whether (or if) it was made to deceive (fraud) or to entertain, or simply to demonstrate the appearance (of what may be one of the rarest of U.S. coins) to those who would otherwise have no opportunity to see one? This last assumes the coin was made prior to the widespread availability of macro-photography.

I remain pleased to have it and look forward, as always, to hearing your comments.

 

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Wow... that's one BAD replica! And of course, the edge is lettered on a genuine coin, not reeded. There's probably a few hundred thousand of these fakes out there, many of them more convincing than yours. Not sure of the year of origin, but it's more than likely Chinese. Rarely (never?) do they use the "copy" stamp on their forgeries. Here's a link to some bust dollar counterfeits:

http://home.comcast.net/~reidgold/draped_busts/page_7.html

 

There's really no way of determining when this was made, either before or after the HPA to effect.

 

The Chinese are making counterfeits (as we speak) without the word COPY or REPLICA on them and selling them in the Asian market which is legal under Chinese law.

What has happened is that European sellers have learned of this technicality in the law and are buying these counterfeits through the Asian market. Then, the Europeans are selling them here in the States through their U.S. contacts.

NOTE: Anyone who imports these counterfeit coins with the intent to defraud is subject to prosecution under Federal law.

Chris

 

This looks to be one of the relatively newer ones. I would say it was made within the last 7-10 years... But that is just an educated guess.

 

Intent to defraud is the key... mere possession is not illegal.

 

Thanks for posting this link. It was very informative! :thumb:

 

Check these counterfeits for sale! Also, please read the 4th sentence of the Company Profile about two-thirds of the way down on the home page.

Chris

Removed for safety

 

It's the real thing and you are a millionaire!

 

NOT lol

 

And I will thank you as well...concentrated education well written and presented. I'm grateful...to all of you...for your comments.

 

Neither is making them.

Selling them as genuine, is.

 

technically, selling them at all is illegal. Whether as genuine or not. These coins do not have the word "copy" on them and as such cannot legally be sold in the US under the Hobby Protection Act.

 

As I said, selling them as genuine is illegal.

 

I don't believe that you can legally sell them as counterfeits, either.

 

Electrotypes

What is the (is there a) consensus on 19th century electrotypes (made well before the Hobby Protection Act)? For example, a 1793 (Ameri. Sheldon-1) chain cent. I've seen these at reputable auctions going for nearly a grand.