Question about treasure find

Someone pass him a kleenex!

Anyways, if Spain's sole intent was to honor the sailors, why would they have their hand in the money pot?

 

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Okay:

Here are the facts, in England the find of multiple coins, or whatever, is condiered trasure trove.
As such, it 'technically' belongs to the crown.

But, as such, the local museums or the government, have the right to purchase the item at "fair market value".
Therefore, the government will acquire rights to the item-- but ONLY if they pay fair market value for it.
The finder & the landowner split the proceeds (50:50). They are made whole. Theoretically, they do not lose anything.
There was one instance where the museum could not come up with the cash, so it (the coin) was sold at auction.
The buyer then sold it to an American buyer for a multiple of the price that he paid. The museum then had to pay the inflated price if they wanted it. Nice deal, and the museum was able to purchase it. The buyer made a nice profit.

um................

okay, but lets consider that they died 400 years ago.

Also, no one said that they were disturbing the remains -- they were simply removing the silver coins.
The company is reputable and considerate of any human remains... if they still exist.
[which I doubt]

 

I thought so, but wasn't sure if my text was clear... :thumb:

 

The issues that Odyssey has with the US government siding with Spain over the "Black Swan" discovery are that: 1) there is no ship's hull or structure, no vessel, 2) nobody can prove the ship that dropped the coins was the Spanish ship in question (Mercedes), 3) the coins were scattered over an area the size of seven football fields, and 4) if the ship was the Mercedes, it was carrying paying passengers and private cargo - the Spanish government never owned the cargo to begin with. It was a Spanish navy vessel on a commercial mission.

Let Spain have what's left of the ship -- Odyssey keeps the coins.

 

I'm thinking I agree

 

Yup

and yup.

 

History shows us that taxes were always collected to fund the military. Of course, without a strong military, you would pay higher taxes to the conquerors. As history as also shown.

 

Mel Fisher discovered the Atocha in dry tortogas and had to fight a legal battle that he won eventaully from Spain mabey it was because he found it off Florida coast but none the less he still had to fight the court battle to keep it.

 

I believe it was the United States Government who raked Mel Fisher over the coals, and didn't even bother using Prep*******-H in the process, either.

 

A simplified conclusion to the Atocha - Mel Fisher - US Govt. saga via Wikipedia:

More on Mel Fisher.org

 

And the State of Florida.....

 

This one really ruins my day/week/year/life. I traded Odyssey (OMEX) for years. Not so much as an investor but as entertainment. I made some money had I lost money that would be OK too. Over the years nautical treasure hunting has changed dramatically via international treaties. I believe all of these changes have gone against the salvers. Currently most industrialized countries signed these treaties except two one being the USA. However, all the countries recognize the treaties. Spain has one of the top nautical lawyers working for them. I don't remember the legal terms that explain how/why Spain won the cases and I don't remember the grounds for the OMEX appeal. (Personally, I'd like for Peru to win their claim against Spain.) In any event, I believe the Black Swan (the Mercedes something) case will be tied up for years in the courts.

Here's the link explaining the case against Spain, which I haven't read for along time.

http://www.shipwreck.net/blackswan.php

EDIT: just read the grounds for appeal at the OMEX website:

Black Swan" site may be associated with the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes,,..."
Though not on the website, some years ago, I read OMEX recovered a cannon from the site that was identified as a part of the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes. It just goes on and on.... ad nauseam

 

Dont'cha know? It's all for the "good of the people."

God forbid someone actually does all the research, raises the capital, endangers their life, and actually discovers something - and the looters don't get their "fair and equal" share... hard work? what's that?

 

as far as I know they developed state of the art salvage equipment and techniques and their recovery methods are archaeology sound and they have an archaeologist on staff. Meanwhile trawlers the world over are destroying wrecked ships and other sites on a daily basis. And most in the archaeology community don't like what OMEX does. They'd prefer, if seems, for these sites to disappear. Really gets me P.O.

 

These archaeologists who have cornered the lobby efforts pertaining to relics are most-times, IMO, Birkenstock-wearing granola hippies who, despite their espousing to the contrary, are left-leaning liberal control-freak weaklings whose idea of hard work is curling bong water.

They'd just assume lock-up a relic in a vault somewhere and have no one see it, rather than have one person come along, who's undertaken the hard work to find it, and possess it.

When these folks get their ultimate way in the U.S. - which IMO they eventually will - you can kiss any meaningful property rights goodbye too... they've already managed to do this in many of the European countries. In some states already in the U.S., it's illegal to cut down your own tree.

 

I so agree

 

Hmm... earlier it was 'pirates in suits' and now the blame has near run the full gamut of demonizing stereotypes... which is not really going to productively explain the situation as it has come to be publicly known in these cases.

Shipwreck stories are an interesting topic of numismatics and other sensitive subjects related to antiquity and lost or stolen property, repatriation, etc. I hope we can stay on topic without finger pointing. :smile

 

Krispy, I apologize if I strayed from the original post. I started out reading every message in the thread but the more I read the angrier I became. A lot of my post was motivated by frustration and anger instead of contributing to the thread.

 

It's alright guys. It's a tough topic. It's easy to tangent on points. I admire Odyssey's research but I question some of their approach (and ethics?) in the manner of salvage, but it's true, they have developed a lot of procedures and methods of working with technology, research and care of underwater sites. It's so hard to take sides when ultimately there was a legitimate problem at the point of origin and perhaps even in the minting of much of the coins taken from indigenous lands and labor. But that argument about exploiting one group for their resources is as old as humanity and never ceases. It seems no group was ever immune from ripping off a weaker group if they could take their property. I still enjoy following the coverage and learning of new findings as well as hearing everyones perspectives.