Hey Gang! I know there are some Goetz collectors floating around these boards. I was at a small coin show yesterday and this piece was sitting at a world coin dealers table. I really liked it and I had to have it. I wanted to share.
Love the reverse ! Most Goetz stuff never rang any bells for me, but every now then there is one I like. Used to be guy on the PCGS World and Ancient forum that was a Goetz nut. Roy could tell ya who he is but I can't recall his name right now.
I was also really drawn to the reverse of this coin. I really liked the eagle (tho it looks more like a vulture to me) but it definitely impressed me. This coin is another that just goes to show that a lot of the nicest looking coins were never mass produced.
I think you are referring to "cacheman." I don't really care for Goetz' work but, cacheman's passion for the guy and his work is inspiring. This thread about cacheman purchasing the Goetz cabinet is quite a saga and I remember correctly he came upon a bunch of undiscovered plaster molds that where hidden in a "secret" storage compartment. http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=686548&STARTPAGE=1 Goetz Post Compilation http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=421432&highlight_key=y&keyword1=goetz And for those who love coin cabinetry as much as I do... http://forums.collectors.com/messag...eadid=644267&highlight_key=y&keyword1=cabinet
Here is the link to the page with the GYPSUM and wax seals (not plaster, I was wrong). http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=644267&STARTPAGE=3
That is absolutely one mighty fine Bundesadler [Federal Eagle]. Love the stylized number 5 in the 5-mark denomination. This squawking eagle is crying out for attention. He wants everyone to know that Ludwig is a defender of the Faith. His spread left wing covers [protects] an image of the Last Supper. His right covers [protects] an image of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, in Jerusalem, originally built by the mother of Constantine [The Great], in CE 330. The Church commemorates the hill of crucifixion and the tomb of Christ's burial ..... two of the most Holy sites in Christianity. Somewhere along the line, an earlier Ludwig had to renounce his claim to the throne of Greece because it would expose him to become a defender of the Eastern Orthodox Church. This was not in keeping with the family tradition of being devout Roman Catholics. Hence, the symbolism of the eagle protecting Christianity is a message that Ludwig would approve. Ludwig III was the last king of Bavaria. His reign was short ..... Nov 1913 - Nov 1918. As WW I drew to a close and Germany was doing badly, Ludwig abdicated his throne and went into exile. Early in the war, Ludwig received a petition from a young, 25-year old Austrian. He quickly approved the petition, allowing Adolph Hitler to enter Germany and join the 16th Bavarian Infantry Regiment. After the war, Hitler stayed and we all know about the disaster he brought upon humanity. Thank you, Ludwig!. While a majority of German coins feature eagles, few include iconic messages the way that your coin does. Your Ludwig is quite special. Good on you!
Back then Germany was an empire, and that eagle is not the Bundesadler (Federal Eagle) but the Reichsadler (Imperial Eagle), or rather a variety of that eagle. Ah well, it's not a coin anyway but a pattern that Goetz made and that was never issued as a coin. Not quite sure what Hitler has to do with this piece, but as you may know, Bavaria even attempted to extradite him, and later refused to give him Bavarian citizenship. He was Austrian until the mid-1920s, then stateless until 1932. That design is better than most of those propaganda medals which Goetz designed and had made. As for what is depicted below the eagle's wings, have a look at the "actual" eagle of those days: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Deutsches_Reich_-_Reichsadler_1889.png No last supper, no church in Jerusalem, I am afraid ... Christian
Danke sehr for he correction. The Reichadler it is. That is what is so refreshing about this website. The knowledge is "out there" and good folks are willing to share what they know. It was my error in not recalling that as a result of the Treaty of Versailles, following the close of WW 1, that the new German Government became a Democratic Republic and, therefore, a Reichstag. As you pointed out, Hitler had no connection whatsoever with the coin. The reference to Hitler was merely a backhanded slap at Ludwig III for allowing the future "der fuhrer" [the leader] to enter Bavaria where he started planting his garden of destruction for the German people. It's ironic that his troops nicknamed him "Grofaz", a rather derogatory and/or sarcastic abbreviation for Grosster Feldherr Aller Zieten [greatest war lord of all time]. Back to the coin's symbolism ..... does anyone see it differently? I just try to rationalize this stuff from what is shown and in trying to understand what the designer wanted to express. Others may see the symbolism from a different prospective. Any thoughts?
OK, here is Goetz's piece (left - hope Matt won't mind my drawing on it ). On the right, the imperial eagle from those days - that eagle also appeared on most coins from the Wilhelm II years. The big bird is the eagle representing Germany. Has been that way since the Middle Ages; usually the one-headed eagle referred to the German king while the two-headed version referred to the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. Today's Germany (the Federal Republic) uses the eagle too. The crown (blue circles) is the symbolic crown of the German Empire. The small bird (red circles) is the Prussian eagle, with the Hohenzollern CoA (four fields, black and white) in the center. The yellow parts, a sort of chain, is the Prussian Order of the Black Eagle. Click on Matt's photo, and the Wikipedia link in my previous post, to see the details ... Christian
Excellent! That was one fine lesson in German heraldry. You highlighted symbolic associations that I had missed, entirely. Thanks for the excellent lesson. You are hereby awarded the Coin Talker's decoration for Commendable Service.
I really like your eagle. A couple months ago I got this medal with four eagles in motion: Here is a thread where this Leipzig medal was discussed at CT: http://www.cointalk.com/t95402/
Thank you, Sir. By the way, maybe the "disassembled" style of the eagle was the reason why this piece never became a coin. With very few exceptions, the imperial eagle (or today the federal eagle) is depicted heraldically - always from the front, and looking left (from the viewer's POV). The only exception that comes to my mind is a Prussian commemorative set from 1913. And those two coins happen to have the same theme as Collect89's "off-topic" medal, hehe. Christian
