This forum proved so useful last week that I'll ask another question. I had thought that the only French 20-franc pieces from 1899-1906 were the Rooster type with the edge inscription DIEU PROTEGE LA FRANCE. Krause and other sources say that there are French 20-franc Angels from 1899-1906 (listed as KM#847 in Krause) also having the edge inscription DIEU PROTEGE LA FRANCE. Is this true? The sources are silent about any edge inscription for the Angels from 1871-1898 (KM#825). I have two that have DIEU PROTEGE LA FRANCE, although on one of them the lettering is not crisp. Are they phony?
No, that is the normal edge inscription. But there are counterfeits - genuine coins should weigh 6.45 gm.
Thanks for the quick reply. I have edited my original question because of my puzzlement that Krause and other sources say that there ARE any Angels for the period 1899-1906 -- I had thought that there are only Rooster types for that period. Isn't that true?
I see why you're confused. KM #825 is the Angel, edge design of DIEU PROTEGE LA FRANCE - it was issued until 1898. KM # 847, the Marianne or Rooster was also issued starting in 1898 and thru 1906, edge design of DIEU PROTEGE LA FRANCE - but in Krause they do not show a picture of this coin. KM #857, also the Marianne or Rooster was issued starting in 1907 thru 1914, edge design of LIBERTE EGALITE FRATERNITE. And there were restrikes for these years as well. I think the part that is throwing you off is because they do not show a picture of KM #847. But that coin does not bear the Angel design. The Ceres design, KM #762 was a completely different coin that was issued prior to the Angel design - 1849 thru 1851.
Almost everything has been said, here's just a link for an article (in french) regarding "20 francs" fake coins: http://www.cgb.fr/or/or005_1info4.htm Jose
When were these restruck? My guess is in the 1930's. When I was in France you could walk into most banks and purchase these coins for the gold value plus a handling fee. The conditions of the coins varied, but were not usually the best specimens.
Cool, I didn't even know they HAD edge lettering..this is from a marianne/rooster from 1907.I guess this was the first year with the new inscription?
Angels and Roosters Thanks for the many replies. The confusing point is that in neither the 19th or 20th century Krause catalogs are pictures of the KM#847 Rooster shown before the listings of its various dates. This is especially confusing in the 19th century catalog since the Rooster listings immediately follow the Angel, and Rooster pictures appear NOWHERE in that catalog. At least in the 20th century catalog the KM#847 Rooster listings -- the ones having a rim saying DIEU PROTEGE LA FRANCE -- are immediately followed by the KM#857 Rooster pictures and listings -- the ones having a rim saying LIBERTE EGALITY FRATERNITE. I had previously been following the excellent listing by cgb of 20-franc gold coins at http://www.lefranc.net/ideal.html, where pictures of all such coins and the political histories associated with them are given. This site and Krause agree on some but not all dates for 3rd Republic Angels and Roosters: they agree on Angels from 1871 to 1898, and the DIEU PROTEGE LA FRANCE Roosters from 1899 to 1906; but they disagree on the LIBERTE EGALITY FRATERNITE Rooster, where Krause says 1906-1914 and cgb says 1907-1914. Neither source says anything about official restrikes.
What edition of Krause do you have ? None of them, 3rd & 4th or 31st & 32nd list the dates as starting at 1906
Krause listing 32nd edition, page 734, halfway down column 1, the first listing under KM#857 gives under the columns Date Mintage F VF XF Unc BU the listing 1906 __ __ __ BV 115 140 What's so strange about this listing is that it doesn't give a mintage value but then continues to give dollar values. 1907-1914 listings also give mintages.
Ya know what George - you're right. Somehow I have completely missed that little detail for quite a few years. What Krause is saying is that the 1906 coin is found in both varieties - with both edge inscriptions. I can't say for sure, but I believe this to be a mistake. None of the other books I have and no resource that I have checked says the same thing. Gadoury and Friedberg both disagree as well. It may be worth writing to Krause to ask about it.
If my memory serves me correctly most of the 1906 20 franc gold coins that I saw in handed glove had the second and not the first inscription.
That was the most obscure fact of coins that I knew and it took me a while to figure it out. Stupid me did not know that the edge was the rim of the coin and it took me a while to find it awhile back.
Hey Andy - did ya leave a word out there ? You said - " the edge was the rim of the coin ". I think maybe you meant to say - " the edge was not the rim of the coin ". We don't want folks getting confused ya know
If the coin has a reddish tone to it,then the gold has had copper added to it.If it appears yellow,then the gold has had silver added to it. Aidan.
