Fakes and forgeries on eBay

I deal with eBay a lot but don't buy or sell coins there. I know that forged stamps are something of a problem for collectors there (though not bad if you're careful and sensible), but I was wondering -- for the people here who buy coins on eBay, how much of an issue are forgeries? Any personal experiences?

 

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you just opened the BIGGEST can of worms ever!

 

Hm, I did a search on here before I posted that and didn't see anything, maybe I missed it somehow.

So, about this can of worms...?

 

Personal experience? Hmmm, let's see....

 

Try a few of these;
http://www.cointalk.com/t101350/
http://www.cointalk.com/t33666/
http://www.cointalk.com/t100598/
http://www.cointalk.com/t95466/
http://www.cointalk.com/t87081/

 

To reduce your chances of buying a forgery on eBay, avoid the following:
Raw: Trade Dollars, Seated dollars, and all key dates. Anything with a CC mintmark. Pre-1930's gold.

PCGS and older ANACS slabs: buy only from established sellers with pristine feedback. Even then you may be at risk.

 

I would love to understand "I deal with eBay a lot but don't buy or sell coins there" does this mean you work for ebay,or you sell other items.

The upcoming fake coins are becoming such an issue in the search area in itself.You can harldy even search ebay without seeing "copy" which is rather annoying.and the fact that the fake coins are being produced so well,and some dont have copy on them,alot of people are buying fake coins.so it is becoming a real problem.

 

It is a large problem. Wide scale counterfeiting operations are happening in China. Even the United States Mint has issued warnings pursuant to the issue. To make matters worse, a "businessman" in China even possesses a press that originated from the Philadelphia Mint, and can produce Morgans with the same exact tolerances as the originals. The US Mint, with their infinite bureaucratic wisdom, sold the Shanghai mint a press in 1923. It subsequently fell into the hands of said Chinese "businessman", known as Mr. L.

More information can be found at: http://coins.about.com/od/errorcoinsdievarieties/ig/Tour-of-the-Shanghai-Mint/Shanghai-Mint.htm

 

Sorry, I'm too new to the hobby these days... what is bad about the photos you posted?

Thanks, just spent an hour+ reading those. The egregious scammers are irritating but seem to prey on the less-knowledgeable bidder. Amazing about the suing guy. (coinmadz or something?)

No, I have a couple coin-related sites and link to eBay coin auctions. Visitors like it but I was curious about the problem for that reason. I hope they are informed enough about coins they want to cast a suspicious eye toward them.

I wonder if there are some coins that are 'safer' than others? Personally I'm more interested in world coins than American ones, and wouldn't be buying anything expensive anyway (not into values so much), but it would still be nice to have authentic ones. Though with that approach I guess it doesn't truly matter. Forgeries can be collectible themselves with the right attitude

Anyway I am very impressed by the users of this board (and other people) who reported scammers and got eBay to pull their listings. It's like a giant whack-a-mole game, and I know people have been frustrated by eBay, but there is a sliver of hope in the system.

 

Remarkable, I didn't know about this. I can never believe the extent people will go to avoid making money legitimately. Must excite them sociopathically...

 

In China, and other Asian countries, counterfeiting has been very big for centuries. It can even be a family operation, ongoing for generations. There is no stigma for counterfeiting Western coins, and the gvt. turns a blind eye. It's all about the money. Nothing sociopathic or threatening, the counterfeiters are actually happy to discuss what they do with interested visitors.

The large images are two fake trade dollars I purchased off of eBAy. One of them is also in the fake ANACS slab (which was really what fooled me, and the seller, too).

If you do a search on threads started by me, you can find the thread on detecting fake Trade Dollars.

 

: Don't buy on eBay!

 

You've highlighted the real problem here I think -- when even the seller is genuinely fooled. Kinda taints the whole thing.

Don't know about avoiding eBay though -- I'd imagine the vast majority of coins there are real, and it's a shame to cut yourself off from the variety there. Maybe it's better for collectors who are in it for the fun and not the money?

 

Would be curious to know if there are any laws in China to stop Mr. L
At the very least of importing them, But would probably use the
Black market for distrabution to stay under the radar!

 

"[C]ounterfeits are in compliance with Chinese law as long as they are dated before 1949, the year the People's Republic of China was founded. Unlike the United States, China does not require replicas or copies to be marked as such." A Guide Book of United States Coins, Professional Edition, R.S. Yeoman, (c)2009, pg.362

 

There are tens of thousands of slabbed PCGS, NGC, and ANACs coins that are decent to outstanding. If it looks suspicious or is a higher dollar coin, you can go to NGC or the PCGS website, join up for a free membership and enter in the serial number off any of their slabs to verify certification.

At the least, it will say what's in the slab and the grade received. Most all of the newer ones have photos in addition to the info, so you can check details of the coin that NGC has in their photo database vs. what's for sale. It sounds like a lot of work but is very easy to do once you get used to it.
Keep in mind these companies have changed their slab styles many times over the years so just because you run across an odd looking one, doesn't automatically mean it's a fake.

With loose coins, you're on your own. Best advice I could give people is learn to judge photographs. The average beginner would probably think 90% of the photos on ebay are good and quite adequate. In reality, very few photos are adequate. Most are downright lousy, once you learn what a good photo should look like. Clear, lots of light, 'white' light (not blue light giving the coin a unique appearance that it really doesn't have) sharp, several photos..etc.. In my earlier days on ebay, I had one seller hide a cleaned, shiny surface by using a dull, yellow light, giving the coin an old gray appearance. I sent it back and learned my lesson.

A seller's photos should all look the same and be of the same quality. If they use different techniques, they're likely hiding something. Too dark, likely hiding something. Only a pic of one side? Wouldn't buy. Basically, if you receive a coin that looks vastly different than the seller's photo, they were likely hiding something OR, they may not even send you the same coin as is pictured. I've had that happen before. Got a coin with a small filled area instead. Had to send that one back too. The more info in the auction and the better return policies you can find, are usually safer. One line descriptions can be bad. "I inherited this from Uncle Joe and don't know what it is" is usually bad. You just can't be nieve.

 

This is of very limited usefulness since almost all of the fake slabs seen so far have copied genuine slab labels. The pictures of the recently slabbed NGC coins helps, but NGC's pictures leave a lot to be desired asn are of limited use in matching coins. For coins slabbed further back ther are no pictures and PCGS has no picture files at all.

 

If everything is exact how can anybody tell its fake, For the collector
Its a big problem:crying:

 

I wonder what our government would do if the Chinese begin printing pre- 1929 paper currency with this accuracy?

 

... and not marking copies as "COPY" is basically a wide-open door to a quasi-legit counterfeit market.

I wonder if it's possible to ever be 100% positive a coin is genuine?