TPG + and * baloney--they can't even grade a coin the same twice in a row!

To me, TPGs perform a decent service but are not consistent when it comes to grading, individually or collectively. All the baloney about + and * (and CACa too) is seemingly just a way to add to the bottom line to these "for profit" companies.

The truth is that they can't even hit the Sheldon 0-70 scale consistently and would grade the same coin differently from one day to another. It thus is absolutely absurd to believe they can split hairs between grades with any degree of consistency.

Besides, an experienced collector/dealer will readily recognize a quality coin. To quote Justice Stewart when the Supreme Court was trying to define pornography, they "will know it when they see it".

What say thee?

 

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I think you need some date to back up that claim. Sending one coin multiple times and having the coin grade differently really proves nothing. I would be interested in seeing an accuracy percentage. If I worked at NGC or PCGS I would suggest that control coins be submitted over and over to determine just how accurate the graders are. I don't know if they do that or not, but they should.

Regarding the star designation, it really doesn't mean much. I don't base my opinion of the eye appeal of a coin on what the NGC graders think, I use my own opinion. Having said that, I do seek out star coins for my registry sets because they get more points. So in that regard, their marketing gimmick has worked, at least on me.

 

I appreciate your candor and agree with the "marketing gimmick" comment.

 

So what do you think about the + and * and CACa?

 

MBT,
As much as I agree that the TPG's sometimes can be awful at grading consistently you have to understand that:
- The * really doesn't have much to do with the grade of the coin.
- The + and CAC have been an aspect of grading for years and years, they were just the first companies to introduce them on slabs.

If PCGS had've said, "We're introducing decimal grading for MS grades", then I would think that it was baloney. That is something that should be left up to the buyer and seller on their own terms.
But that isn't what happened.

If anything, above any future changes, I think they should start using the full Sheldon scale, and utilizing more than half of the numbers on the scale. Then we can talk about decimal grading.

 

+1

 

The problem, in a word, is that grading is "subjective"!

 

As would every grader and collector anywhere. They're only human. But, I think they're grading is more consistent than the average collector's, which is why they remain in business.
Guy~

 

I am and have for years. You know how I feel, Doug. It has never changed. Funny thing is that I think you agree in principle, but not in practice.

I think that grade should be grade and value should be subjective. I have never figured out a way to say it that is satisfactory to you, though, Doug. I think we should just use technical grading for grading and leave the subjective parts for the people that buy and sell them.

If it bothers people that this way leaves no way of ranking one coin vs. another, that is exactly right. 1 XF is the same as another XF. The values may be different, but they are both XF. Remove the subjective and quantify what is easily quantifiable. Don't try to bring the subjective into the grade and leave it in the deal where it belongs.

 

The following is From a novice standpoint on PCGS. First I will say that almost all of my PCGS slabbed coins are from the 80's, so I will omit them from the following assesment.

I assume now when I am at a show (usually a state conv.) that most slabbed coins are probably a low to average grade, if not designated higher by a cac or a * or whatever. The reason being that I assume most coins that were undergraded have been cracked out or resubmitted since this has been going on for years now. I am sure one can cherrypick a nice coin every now and then, but I personally will not hold my breath.

I recently purchased an PCGS MS62 morgan on Ebay that had been marked on the obverse with a felt tipped pen! Would PCGS buy this coin back??

Lack

 

sound reasoning. Most coins in slabs are either overgraded or at some point soon will be.

 

Go figure

 

here's where I think we split company Doug:

I think that grade should be based on strike and state of preservation. I do not believe that subjective attributes should be considered in a grade because these are based on opinion. I believe that opinion should be considered when valuing but not in grading.

You make the point that the TPGs are wrong for bringing value into consideration when grading a coin and you couldn't be more correct. This is why key date coins seem to be graded more leniently. It is a logical extension of using subjectivity to grade coins. The TPGs try to rank coins relative to their value by using a grading system to compare them to each other.

Here's my system: just describe a coin as: uncirculated and has a 95% full strike. You decide which one is a better example from coin to coin, and what you would then pay for it.

In my world it's about the coins and not the $.

 

Ah, a collector par excellance......:smile

 

They may not be consistent. I often times find it amazing looking at MS-65s and MS-66s side by side how little difference there can be and wonder if the graders could differentiate the two if the labels were covered. But what can you do? We live in an imperfect world. I'm willing to accept the TPG's opinion as third party professionals with really nothing to gain. They grade coins day after day, year after year, with no care about trying to make a profit on what goes through their hands. That's worth more than an average opinion to me. If they're prone to make mistakes, then really, how good is the average dealer or collector at doing the same? Do you consider yourself to be the equivalent of a TPG grader? Better?

This is why David Bowers recommends over and over to buy the best value grade and use the rest of the money for a vacation. If a coin's value changes in small increments through the grades up to MS-65 and then increases 10 fold to the MS-66, then the MS-65 (assuming it has good eye appeal) is the best value. It applies to everything.