Toned Copper Coins restrictricted to MS65?

Coppermania,

I'm so glad that I opened this topic because I've learned a hell of a lot. I broached the topic because I have a really Sweet 1909 VDB, and after reading your posts, I'm definitely intrigued by the intracacy of all of it, and what might be considered a weakness that I can exploit in the grading structure. Thanks for your expertise.

Steve

 

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If it does not "knock you out, have nothing, no spot, no marks except maybe the ones you won't find for a year, stunning luster to write home about" it is not a 66 BN no matter the holder and not the type coins I've been speaking of.
The 66 BN's that I have been talking about at arms length should look MS-68 at first glance, they should be stunning even and all over, all day long.

 

Well when you say "in a few years" if you mean maybe 100-200 years, then I would maybe agree. I have many full red coppers that are 100-150 years old, without any indication of brown whatsoever. As long as I store them properly I have no reason to suspect they will all of the sudden change on me in the next few years... maybe another 100 years, though, but that won't be my problem.

 

Why is that, from a chemical standpoint. I mean, for a coin to stay red, is it because it basically took on an even, "air tight" and extremely light toning, such that no air can get at the surface? I'm trying to ask if coins can "stabilize" in a red color so that you'd have to be trying to mess it up? I'm not talking about the coins that got stored with some type of sacrificial anode or other coins...I'm talking about relatively chemically inert ones. Is my conceptualization of it right?

Steve

 

I got to go with Doug on this - they will tone, in fact it's a just a matter of time when compared to all others. What else do we have to compare them to? All other copper coins!
It always amazes me when I open a bank wrapped roll of wheats or memorials over 40 or 50 years old and they are still red. They are the lucky ones. The ones from the teens or 20's that are still red, (if original) blows me away. We have 2009 Lincoln copper compositions turing the moment they left the mint. Again the answer is, some do, some won't - some have, some have not yet, the key word being "yet". Now with slabs you may have an advantage depending on it's history before that but it's just an advantage nothing more, it will tone over time.

Just consider what parameters or conditions, the advantage that one lucky red copper coin must/might need to have for a pristeen gem red copper coin over 60 years to remain red ?
Was thay coins life spent in Arizona, New Mexico, California, inside a tube, 2x2, indoors, out of light, never handeled or handeled with golves, never coughed over or talked over, no sulver in the safe, and on and on and on and just how many have had "that perfect life"?

Coin do turn inside slabs we all know that it you've been around awhile. Will every single gem red copper you have will tone inside it's slab during your lifetime? Maybe not but it will be the exception rather than the rule, they will tone. Not only that but other changes will and can occur, spots, discoloration, milky places - you name it, even years or decades after they have been effected.

Thinking your gem red copper coins do not or will not change is not reality, it does not make sence because it's simply not true. If it is not true it does not make sence - the odds on red copper staying are not in your favor or complete control, I wish it were not so but it has to be!

 

Excellent thread with great questions and answers...

 

I think you just pretty much made my point... sure it'll all eventually tone, but it's all about storage... do it wrong and that's why you have those 10-20 year old slabs holding RB coins that say RD on the label... do it right and the 100+ year old RD beauties will most likely still be bright RD in another 100 years.

 

I want to reiterate my question and offer up some solutions.

Back in 1995, I went crazy looking for that doubled die cent. They were in my area. I didn't find any in all of the rolls I searched, but I did get an AU example in change, which was kind of cool.

Anyway, I never did anything with those cents. I left them in my garage, in a box, all loose. So, the interesting thing is that if you go in there and look at them (cardboard box, hot, high humidity environment too), the top ones are brown(ish), but the ones underneath are still red. Essentially, they are protecting each other. They are acting as a "sacrificial anode" for each other.

So I can offer this up...if I had a super duper killer red coin that I wanted to protect, whether it was in a slab or not...I'd store it inside a big pile of loose red cents. Maybe first putting it inside tupperware that I burped on a day of low air pressure.

Or, I'd try to rig up a vacuum chamber, but thats grist for another thread.

But my questions (two posts back) is...are there two kinds of red cents?

The ones I have in my garage are red because they've never been exposed to bad air, or limited amounts of bad air. They are unstable, and surely would turn brown in a non-air-tight slab.

But I think there is another kind. Tonng is...essentially...multiple layers of oxidation...each one little more than a few atoms thick. When there are enough of them, they absorb and refract light enough to make colors.

Here's where I start theorizing....I think that if you have a copper coin that gets to be 95% toned (and almost 95% inert), it is that 5%non-inert portion that is the killer. It will continue to be a pathway for the oxidation to take place, and that oxidation moves through the coin like a bucket brigade moving pails of water.

But...if the coins tones over 100% of its surface, but the toning is still only a few atoms thick, it essentially becomes air tight in it's own skin. This is the other kind of red....a red that will not change. To stay red, it needs to tone completely, but in a very thin, almost invisible layer.

This theory, is the only way that I can explain coins that are more than 100 years old and are still red. I saw a photo of proof flying eagle cent the other day that made me want to cry...cry because I can't afford to buy stuff like that. It was so beautiful, and it was red. Guys, I just think that it got a quick coating of oxidation early, and then its own relatively inert skin is protecting it.

Maybe it seems common sense, but go with the trend. If a coin is 40 years old, it might be red because it never had the opportunity to turn red, sort of like those in my garage. But if a coin has had decades or perhaps centuries to turn and has not, it likely won't because it is safe in it's own skin. At least that's the way I'd bet.

Steve

 

Please buy the book "Coin Chemistry" by Weimar W. White. It explains toning in a way that is easy to understand. I consider it the authoritive guide on the subject. Covers all sorts coin color topics. Also changed the way I term toning as "intentional and unintentional" instead of "artificial and natural" as all toning is natural.

Even covers why sharp strike coins are more prone to toning than soft stike coins. A recomended read and one I shouldn't try to regurgitate myself here. Thanks.