Fake Saflips?

I purchased some packs of Salips for a good price recently from here: http://coinpocket.com/

Now the site looks legitimate and there's possibly nothing wrong here but I have some questions.

First, I have purchased probably 200 packs of Salfips over the years. Every pack was the same, every Salfip had the same texture, the same feel, the same patterned welding ridge-lines across the sides but these are different. The Photo isn't great but the one on the left is the real Saflip while the one on the right I'm skeptical. See the different welding?

The welding is less thick on the sides and doesn't have the same looking welding ridge line as if it was welded with a different machine than the one Saflip has used for every other pack I've purchased. The feel is completely different too. In the saflip package they feel very rigid and you cannot bend them from the middle when more than two are stacked on top of one another which I've been able to do with 50 salfips stacked from every other Saflip I've purchased. The plastic is different as well. Saflips are clear with no horizontal streaks yet these saflips — though my camera cannot capture it — have horizontal streaks, almost like scratches but they were made this way.

Lastly, when sealing them the smell is different. The mylar from Saflips has a particular smell but these smell different.

 

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I could be completely wrong here and Salfip might have changed the way they make their mylar flips. Maybe they're an older variety sold for less, IDK. It just makes me weary because of the consistency of Salfip having purchased them from various companies for years.

 

Hmm. I'd be suspicious, too. If I had them in hand, I'd sacrifice one of each by cutting off a strip and doing a burn test (outside!).

So you're saying that the suspicious ones are stiffer/harder than the previous ones?

 

Yeah, all the Saflip packs I purchased before these from a company I've never previously purchased from, the Saflips were rigid but could be bent holding both sides and squeezing which would bend from the middle. Even if you stacked all 50 you could bend them and there was a springiness to them. These new ones are rigid too and they come in a saflip package that is exactly the same as every other Saflip package I've purchased. But you cannot bend them when they are stacked. Basically I put my hand around both sides and they are solid. And when I bend just one they feel slightly similar but the plastic is different and the welding is different too. They just have a totally different feel.

 

I'll try the burn test just to see. It's not an exact science but even if they are the same plastic the welding is less durable and smaller which already has me suspicious because you need a good seal for the coin.

 

The main thing you want to be wary of is PVC which contains the element Chlorine. As a chemist, the way I always tested for chlorine was the Beilstein Test. You can trim an edge of one of your 2x2's or just sacrifice one. Heat a copper wire in a flame (butane lighter?) to burn off any residue, then touch the hot copper wire to the plastic to be tested. Return the wire to the flame and look for a green color which would indicate chlorine.

 

Chlorinated plastics generally give off little green bursts as they burn, even without the metal, right?

 

So I did the burn test. The suspcious ones I got burn different. It took them longer to light on fire but when the did the burn was very quick with soot and some particles that light on fire midair and dripping nearly immediately whereas the other salfips burn slowly. Huh.

 

I'm not a polymer chemist (I'll try to remember to ask my wife, she was in the business ages ago), but it almost sounds like the old ones are actual Mylar (stretched PET) and the new ones are plain old PET. In fact, if you were getting soot and burning particles, that sounds more like polystyrene. It won't attack your coins like PVC, but it won't necessarily protect them as well, either -- although a flip doesn't seal tightly enough to exclude air, regardless.

 

A flip won't seal even if you heat it down? I'v done this for every coin and put in mylar pages in a safepub folder. So, I burned both of them again and they both light on fire but extinguish after 3-5 seconds. There is soot and the flame is orange.

 

They are nearly the same the difference is the suspcious one burns far quicker and drips far easier. But it also is thicker plastic. So it could be an older variety. They both however say they're polyethylene terephthalate. Your link says they are suppose to light yellow with light smoke but I'm getting organe with black smoke and soot.

 

What about that little puff of crap from the sealing that gets inside the flip?

 

Pretty much, it's just that the copper forms copper chloride which gives the flame color easier.

 

That "yellow" could be sodium due to being touched (sodium chloride).

 

I don't think they have any PVC in them though. So that's a plus.

 

My recommendation, sacrifice one of the flips and send it to the manufacturer. Ask them if this is their product. I'd call or email them first. They'll advise you with no question about authenticity.

 

Did they specifically say Saflip on the package? Saflip is a brand name and unless it is labeled as such, it is most likely something made in China and I would question it.

 

I am curious if the various use of "burning", "flames", etc. are being confused. It sounds like some are physically and chemically expecting to seal them with a flame or test them by using a flame such as a match. At least no one seems to be using a butane torch yet. To chemically test composition, a heated metal ( usually nichrome) needle or loop such as used in labs. Most Lowe's have such wire . Heat the wire and touch it to the plastic and check the color of the thin smoke to determine the presence chlorine or other volatiles. I have used Saflip holders for all long term storage of special coins not in a TPG plastic holder. I seal them with a electric "bag" sealer with adjustable heat so you don't burn though the area of the seal. That way there should be no splattered melt material with the coin, nor any burn residue. Jim

 

2.5x2.5 saflips Hmmm just me or is the only reason anyone buys these and not 2x2s is for TPG submission On a side note I buy almost all my coin supplies from either Wizard or lilbear... that way I know i getting what I paid for

Another side note, the pack I have now has issues similar to yours

 

The idea of using a copper wire for halogens (particularly Cl) is that the halide forms a compound with the copper that makes the color easier to detect. The nichrome wire is used to dip into aqueous solutions of the salts.