Discussion Topic- Why are Carr "Fantasy Overstrikes" not considered Counterfeits?

I note you bumped a dormant thread on CU. I assume there is a reason, maybe a further commentary you would like to explore, although I don't know what else could possibly be explored at this date, absent litigation by somebody against somebody.

Did you take note of the question asked, after your bump? What are your thoughts pertaining to the question?

 

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On the CU Forum....specifically the HPA Thread....Captain Henway had bumped the thread. It had been idle for a while.

I made the admittedly probably coincidental leap that it may be because of the recent posts here.

The Bump tickled a question to Captain Henway from Nysoto, as follows:

" I have a question for @Cpt.Henway. Some early U.S. coins are overstrikes of other coins, such as some half cents. These are die struck products that become US Mint coins, and the source of the planchet, whether a prepared blank or a previously struck coin, have no bearing on the final product-as in a US Mint half cent that could retain part of the design of the overstruck coin.

For the Hobby Protection Act, why would a die struck product be considered an alteration, if the source of the material could either be a rolled blank or a previously struck coin, when the final die struck product is a copied US Mint design?

I realize experts could tell the difference of an overstruck coin from the edge and possible letter ghosting, but in the context of "Hobby Protection" how could a novice tell the difference from online auction images? "

Captain Henway has not had the opportunity to respond yet, but when he finds the time, it would be of interest to this thread, I am certain, especially since it touches on the work and studies of Mr. Young.

I would be interested in the commentary from Captain Henway, and I would think it would be helpful to other members. There are actually 2 interesting questions by Nysoto., btw, and both are thought provoking.

Truth in editing: changed 'foe' to 'for'.

 

I think this needs to be in one of @Jack D. Young threads.
Was thinking of the early cent.

 

Just the same as everyone else, know what you are buying.
There is a counterfeit for every level of collector on CT, in the community, even the TPG's

Answer me this can you define Novice for us?

Don't hit me I am feeling a little froggy tonight.

 

A novice is a new, beginning collector. However, there are a very large number of long-time collectors who are also novice numismatists. The proof of this can be found every day, right here in front of our faces!

 

Nysoto is not a novice. I quoted his entire post. He had 2 very good questions for Capt. Henway.

I would have thought you would find the 2 questions....not the 'how do you tell the difference' question specifically, but the other 2 questions.... thought provoking and intriguing and most certainly not novice questions.

I would opine that the 2 questions would be hard to articulate and digest and answer for an attorney, numismatic or otherwise.

Care to try to reply to the 2 questions, as a numismatist? I would have been interested in Capt. Henway and Mr. Young would have had/could share an opinion. It is 2 worthwhile teaching moment questions, in my opinion.
Truth in editing: added 'could share'.

 

If someone altered the date on a common, genuine coin and tried to sell it as a rare date, it's fraud, but if someone tried to spend that same coin at face value, would it still be fraud?

 

While this has nothing to do with Mr. Carr's fantasy over strikes, I'd say spending an altered genuine coin is OK. I've done it. I've also placed fake 8 Reales and gold colored Escudos at the waterline on Florida beaches and watched the fun!
Boy, I'm going to the hot place below.

 

Realistically what are you going to alter and spend? A wheat cent who cares. A Washington quarter again who cares. You wont be spending an altered double eagle or anything like that and we have no circulating modern dollar coins that you could alter to a rare date. The highest realistic value you could alter would be a quarter which no one will spend a second worrying about. You get Canadian coins back sometimes in change people pay so little attention to it for the most part

 

OK, I'll come clean and add to what baseball posted. Note: I have not done this but I know two dealers (both dead) who have spent 1909 VDB cents with added S mintmarks and 1944-D cents altered to 14-D. I was told that it brings traffic into their store. I'll bet more folks do this.

 

So that's what i've been finding!!!i wondered why they were not passing the tests.

 

On one occasion, we had two people digging at the spot hoping to find more coins.

 

Insider, did you see the post today by Vincent on the CAC Board, in reference to ICG? I am only curious because on this thread you opined when you assumed (mistakenly) a disparaging remark about ICG, and I wonder if you might address the comment by Vincent?

 

Curious @charley why you would even post this here on my post? Seems very inappropriate and just trying to start some edited

 

Dang right you are........

 

He is on my Ignore List with a few other and insecure members of his ilk who post nothing of value. Unfortunately , I was forced to add two other to that list who post good stuff on occasion but insisted on criticizing my methods rather than participate in a useful way to the discussion by sharing their knowledge.
Perhaps that post should be reported. On two occasions, a comment such as yours has made the delete their offending post.

 

Seems like a real long shot for someone to hope they circle back to your store. There probably was a higher chance decades ago, but at this point theres really just two practical options of throwing it away or spend it. There is an argument collecting wise to throw it away its such low value, but it's still a real coin as far as commerce is concerned so I wont blame anyone that spends them

 

I was just thinking about the warning not to try to pass the overstrikes as legal tender. Are they still legal tender since they started as genuine coins?

 

The overstrikes and altered seem like two different conversations. If you're thinking of the Carr coins who ever gets them would be getting something of significantly more value than the face value. The majority of them are out of circulation designs or silver which I would happily accept if someone was paying me with at face value. I'd take a hobo nickel as a nickel as well every time. Even the modern clad ones are worth much more than face. Hypothetically though the US mint has overstruck coins before so it seems logical the same would still apply. Practically though once the over strike happens it would be very foolish to spend at face value. You would have to alter the size of the coin to change the denomination to be passable which would be a different story

 

I am curious why you would be offended, especially in light of other inappropriate posts, that you were not curious about. I was the person that questioned Insider about posting a "defense" of ICG and doing so in a very unclear manner. If you have a problem with my posts, or think I am out of line and doing so intentionally, PM me. I don't need to start anything. It is a thread. It is an interesting thread. If there is inappropriateness, it is Insider hijacking a thread to ad nauseum 'defend' ICG and doing so because of his misinterpretation.

Do you have an issue with the thread having a post that states a post has nothing to do with Mr. Carr's fantasy overstrikes, and then posts spending an altered genuine coin is OK, or with a post that meanders into what a definition of a novices is and snidely refers to members here in a condescending manner? You certainly can interpret intent of a post in any manner you wish, but you seem to be doing so selectively. If I have offended you because I question a possible board friend, you can place me on ignore, without the drama queen post. You do not know anything about me, what I do, or why I post.

This is a discussion topic concerning Carr counterfeits. Maybe you are attempting to start something because for some reason, that you could not articulate if asked to do so, explain, except you take umbrage with the person. That is inappropriate. Your post? Silly, when you think about it, in light of other posts, here.

However, I will answer your question, although I do not think it was asked in good faith, but to belittle, in my opinion:

The reason is stated in my post. I consider the rants about the integrity of ICG on 'your post' to have been inappropriate, and to do so because of his incorrect interpretation of events, yet the CAC Board I am referring to, and that Insider is a member of, has a member opining today concerning ICG grading, yet Insider does not reply. I consider his earlier comments on 'your post' inappropriate. You maybe don't. Selective interpretation. So, why would you think it necessary to respond to me in a drama queen manner, when you do not respond to similarly inappropriate threads?

The Moderators might find it in the interest of this thread to simply remove my posts. However, I do not consider any thread or post by a member, to somehow be inappropriate (outside stated rules) because you or anyone else thinks so. Membership is equality, regardless of perceived stature in the collecting numismatic hobby.

Next time, simply PM me and we can discuss without all the drama, or pm me and aske me to remove a post if it offends you so much. There is another alternative available: ignore me.

I have one more response to post on this thread, and I will then not reply to any thread you start.

I hope this is acceptable to you.