When normal is strange:A rare oddity of Germanicus and Drusus made all the more odd by being normal

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ryro, May 14, 2022.

  1. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    You are traveling through another dimension of coinage, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of weird countermarks. A journey into a wondrous coin that is a truly strange anomaly that comes down to us through the eons. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Ryro Zone!
    0ddb52f2911446ea2070b02a5a8886da.gif

    Not seen very often, and never if you keep your eyes closed, are these Lydian(?) coins from the reign of Tiberius featuring Germanicus and Drusus:
    share5809922279172428703.png share680125546506546624.png
    Germanicus and Drusus
    LYDIA, Sardes (?), Struck CE 23-26?
    restruck by Asinius Pollio, proconsul of Asia under Caligula, CE 37-38? Æ26, 13.78 gm
    Obv: ΔPOYΣOΣ KAI ΓEPMANIKOΣ NEIOI ΘEOI ΦIΛAΔEΛΦOI; Germanicus and Drusus seated left on curule chairs, one holding lituus.
    Rev: ΓAIΩ AΣINNIΩ ΠΩΛΛIΩNI ANΘYΠATΩ; KOINOY/ AΣIAΣ within wreath
    Ref: RPC 2995, Sear 365

    These rarities are made all the more strange and unique due to the weird circular countermark that they have that completely covers the previous legends!? So many circles covering circles :watching:
    GZQM.gif

    Apparently, around the reign of Caligula a proconsul wanted to erase his predecessor and put his own name instead! (Is my favored interpretation of a coin type we know little about).
    Learn more from this AWESOME featured thread (remember when they would do that?) by @TIF !
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-puzzling-provincial-of-germanicus-and-drusus.264079/
    (Had fun reading through this old treasure. Made me miss @Mikey Zee and @stevex6 who was off here before I joined:oops: Speaking of, had anyone heard from @furryfrog?)

    TIF and @dougsmit are the only other CTers with this type that I'm aware of.

    But this isn't even about that coin.
    19013905.gif

    Even more rare however is the type without the one of a kind countermark.
    A coin so normal it's nearly unique due to NOT having the strange circular countermark!
    bc056ce7305c70940d8c8a0cc316ecbc.gif

    Usually selling for stupid amounts (especially in this condition) I just stole mine in today's Demos auction.
    Here I submit for your approval a coin so regular it's down right strange:
    2759347_1650446239.l.jpg
    ★ Rare ★

    (11.92g 26mm Bronze) LYDIA, Sardes. Germanicus and Drusus, Caesares. 23-26 AD. AE Asinius Pollio, Proconsul.
    Togate figures of Drusus and Germanicus seated left on curule chairs,
    Rev.ΔΡOΥΣOΣ KAI ΓEΡMANIKOΣ KAIΣAΡEΣ NEOI ΘEOI ΦIΛAΔEΛΦOI around KOINOΥ AΣIAΣ in two lines within wreath; ΓAIΩ AΣINNIΩ ΠOΛΛIΩNI ANΘΥΠATΩ around.
    RPC I 2995.

    And some coins of the others involved around this time:
    share7112194378509955089.png
    Tiberius
    AE As, AD 22-23, TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVST IMP VIII , bare head right, rev PONTIF MAXIM TRIBVN POTEST XXIIII around large SC, (RIC 44; BMC 91

    Here's my latest Caligula that I don't believe I've shared yet. It's everyone's favorite evil emp with mother of Germanicus, making her Caligula's grandmother!
    2288790_1635105529.l-removebg-preview.png
    Gaius Caligula, with Antonia, MACEDON. Thessalonica. 37-41. (Bronze, 22 mm, 9.95 g, 6 h). Γ KAIΣAP ΘEΣΣAΛONIKEΩN Laureate head of Caligula to left. Rev. ΑΝΤΩΝΙΑ ΣΕΒΑΣΤΗ Veiled head of Antonia II to left, wearing stephane. RPC I 1574. Brown patina. NVF. Purchased from Savoca November 2021

    A scrubby rarity of our huckleberries:
    share6968405499277775087.png
    Germanicus, with Drusus Caesar
    MYSIA. Pergamon. 4 BC-AD 19. Ae.
    Obv: ΓEPMANIKOΣ KAIΣAP.
    Bare head of Germanicus right.
    Rev: ΔPOYΣOΣ KAIΣAP.
    Bare head of Drusus right.
    RPC I 2367.
    Condition: Near very fine.
    Weight: 3.33 g.
    Diameter: 17 mm.



    Please share your coins of the type, Germanicus or Drusus, Tiberius or Caligula, weird countermarks, theories and or coins so normal it's weird!
     
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  3. Dafydd

    Dafydd Supporter! Supporter

    Great OP !
    I was incited to find something because I like the Strange Days track.
    Here is a Germanicus that I intended to post sometime because it came with a lot of providence, old collectors tickets and a black and white photograph sent to Seaby in the 1970's because of course there was no Internet then.

    upload_2022-5-14_21-5-2.png
    upload_2022-5-14_21-5-30.png

    O: GERMANICVS CAESAR, Germanicus in quadriga right.
    R: SIGNIS RECEP DEVICTIS GERM S-C, Germanicus standing left, holding eagle-tipped sceptre. 29 mm 15.43 gms
     
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  4. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the great write-up and interesting coin, @Ryro.

    You omitted to mention that Antonia -- specifically, Antonia Minor, younger sister of Antonia Major! -- was not only Germanicus's mother and Caligula's grandmother, but was also Claudius's mother, portrayed on the reverse of this Roman Alexandrian tetradrachm of Claudius:

    Claudius I - Antonia (mother) Roman Alexandria Tetradrachm jpg version.jpg

    I certainly don't have any coins of Germanicus and Drusus together, but I do have them separately, assuming that the Drusus portrayed on your coin is Drusus Julius Caesar a/k/a Drusus Minor (the son of Tiberius and Vipsiana), d. AD 23, rather than Tiberius's brother Nero Claudius Drusus a/k/a Drusus Major, d. 9 BC.

    Germanicus (issued by Caligula):

    Germanicus jpg version.jpg

    Drusus Minor (issued by Tiberius):

    Drusus Minor As under Tiberius jpg USE THIS.jpg

    Tiberius:

    Tiberius denarius jpg version.jpg

    COMBINED NEW TIBERIUS AS.jpg

    Spain, Terraconensis. Turiaso, As, Tiberius bull reverse jpg image.jpg

    Caligula:

    Caligula As, Vespa reverse COMBINED.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
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  5. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    This auction seems to have been very popular.
     
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  6. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    It was a good auction and I was just stalking it seeing if I can steal something, ended up winning 4 coins, all quite good.

    Here is my Germanicus & Drusus
    upload_2022-5-14_23-31-42.png


    MYSIA. Pergamum. Germanicus & Drusus (Caesares, 14-19). Ae. Struck under Tiberius.
    Obv: ΓEPMANIKOΣ KAIΣAP.
    Bare head of Germanicus right.
    Rev: ΔPOVΣOΣ KAIΣAP.
    Bare head of Drusus right.
    RPC I 2367.
     
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  7. LukeGob

    LukeGob Well-Known Member

    Very interesting, thanks. Gotta say, the main show without the c/m is a beautiful coin on top of it all; holds it's own on its own. Congrats, nice find. I'll post a pic or 2 when I find the images (or make a new ones)
     
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  8. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    An observation that becomes rather obvious by now: these smaller auction houses from Germany, Poland, the Netherlands have been steadily bringing very interesting Eastern colonial coinage for the past 2 years.
     
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  9. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Another multi-media extravaganza from @Ryro productions! Fun thread. I ALMOST bought one of those circular countermark Lydians from William Rosenblum at the show.

    I do not have a coin of Drusus himself. Someday I'll rectify that situation when I'm not tracking down obscure Faustina coins. I do have coins of a few women in Drusus' life, of course.

    [​IMG]

    Vipsania, mother of Drusus. I find @Jasper Burns' article convincing (The Celator. 2004 May;18(5):6 and reprinted online).

    [​IMG]
    Tiberius, AD 14-37.
    Roman orichalcum Dupondius, 14.32 g, 29.15 mm, 1 h.
    Rome, AD 22/23.
    Obv: PIETAS, veiled, diademed and draped bust of (Vipsania? as) Pietas, right.
    Rev: DRVSVS CAESAR TI AVGVSTI F TR POT ITER around large SC.
    Refs: RIC Tiberius 43; BMCRE Tiberius 98; CBN Tiberius 74; Cohen 1; RCV 1741.

    Wife of Drusus:

    [​IMG]
    Antonia, Augusta AD 37 and 41.
    Roman orichalcum dupondius, 12.10 gm, 28.3 mm.
    Rome, AD 41-50.
    Obv: ANTONIA AVGVSTA, bust of Antonia, draped and bare-headed right, hair in long plait.
    Rev: TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG P M TR P IMP S C, Claudius, veiled and togate, standing left, holding simpulum in right hand.
    Refs: RIC 92; BMC 166; Cohen Antonia 6; RCV 1902; CBN 143; Carson 405.

    Germanicus.

    [​IMG]
    Germanicus, 15 BC - AD 19.
    Roman Æ as, 11.18 g, 27.5 mm, 7 h.
    Rome, issued under Caligula, AD 40-41.
    Obv: GERMANICVS CAESAR TI AVG F DIVI AVG N, bare-head of Germanicus, left.
    Rev: C CAESAR DIVI AVG PRON AVG P M TR P IIII P P around large SC.
    Refs: RIC 50; BMCRE 74-78; Cohen 4; RCV 1822; CBN 123.
    Note: Reverse die-match to Henry Cohen, Description historique des monnaies frappées sous l'Empire Romain, Tome I, Paris, 1880, page 225, no. 4.

    Wife of Germanicus.

    [​IMG]
    Agrippina I, wife of Germanicus, 14 BC - AD 33
    Roman AE Sestertius 27.92 gm, 34.8 mm, 7 h
    Rome mint. Struck under Claudius, 42-54 AD
    Obv: AGRIPPINA M F GERMANICI CAESARIS, bare-headed and draped bust right.
    Rev: TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG GERM P M TR P IMP P P around large SC.
    Refs: RIC I 102 (Claudius); BMCRE 219 (Claudius); Cohen 3.

    Tiberius.

    [​IMG]
    Tiberius, AD 14-37.
    Roman AR Denarius, 3.87 g, 18.5 mm, 5 h.
    Lugdunum, AD 16-37.
    Obv: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS, laureate head, right.
    Rev: PONTIF MAXIM, Female figure seated right, holding long olive branch and inverted spear; legs of chair ornate, triple line below.
    Refs: RIC 28; BMCRE 42-44; RSC 16b; RCV 1763 var.

    Caligula.

    [​IMG]
    Caligula, AD 37-41.
    Roman provincial Æ 20 mm, 6.74 g.
    Peloponnese, Corinthia, Corinth, Ae. P. Vipsanius Agrippa and M. Bellius Proculus, duoviri, AD 37-38.
    Obv: C CAESAR AVGVSTV, bare head right.
    Rev: M BELLIO PROCVLO IIVIR / COR, Pegasus flying right.
    Refs: RPC I 1173; Amandry (1988) XVII; BCD Corinth 405-6.
     
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  10. octavius

    octavius Well-Known Member

    Germanicus - struck by Caligula and Claudius... 77099.jpg

    0001LG.jpg 063019.jpg 063019N2.jpg

    and Tiberius asses...

    7JdDA48aiqK45DogXc3S9HtHLi6MX2.jpg 7KyGYr5PMNf43cNpr6iEo3G2Je8aP9.jpg
     
  11. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    That countermark is something else. Absolutely incredible, and seems to be way more trouble than it would have been worth - normal little countermarks take next to no effort to place, but these would had to have been done with great care. Very odd.


    I have a cute little coin of Tiberius here. Looks like I the sides in reverse order.
    Tiberius Sardes RPC 2991.JPG
     
  12. The Meat man

    The Meat man Supporter! Supporter

    Here is a nice little Tiberius provincial I picked up recently. I like the simplicity of it.
    20220513_183716.jpg
     
  13. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Some very cool, beautiful and strange coins here:artist::cool::cyclops:. Thanks for the great responses!
    @Dafydd Great coin that's even more cool due to coming with old tags... and even cooler still that the tag was written around the same time as the Strange Days album!
    Good call out and great coins Donna!:wideyed:
    Antonia said of her own son, Claudius, "a monster of a man, not finished but merely begun by Dame Nature". At least per a boy named Suetonius.
    I really need to upgrade some of these, but there are still so many shields out there to buy!
    share966693350711652912.png
    Agrippina/Germanicus
    (Died 19 and 33, respectively). PHRYGIA. Aezanis. Ae. 17 MM 3.4 gr Lollios Klassikos, magistrate.
    Obv: ΓЄPMANIKOC.
    Laureate head of Germanicus right.
    Rev: AΓPIΠΠINA ЄΠI KΛACCIKOV AIZANITωN.
    Draped bust of Agrippina right.
    RPC I 3081; SNG Copenhagen 71-2



    share2114486028569409795.png
    DRUSUS CAESAR
    son of Tiberius. Caesar, 19-23 CE. Æ As (28mm, 7.33 g). Rome mint. Issued under Tiberius, 22-23 CE. Bare head of Drusus left / Legend around large SC. RIC I 45 (Tiberius);
    share2041331307380957005.png
    And here's a pretty fun barbarous Caligula (his barbarians LOVED him. When he was assassinated his 500 barbarian guards went ballistic, turning Rome upside down):
    share2698183790048390431.png

    Nice example @ambr0zie :woot:and just like @seth77 pointed out, not only are these auctions getting more popular, quickly (that was only their tenth), they are putting some super rare and sometimes unique coins on the market. There were some rare and beautiful bronze Septimius Severus coins that went for thousands:greedy: And here I thought, was hoping, all these new collectors want is slabbed silver:confused:
    Ahhhh, @Roman Collector showing up with some class and panache :cigar::pompous:
    I was so frustrated when finding out this wasn't Julia! I'd spent so much time and care collecting the three Julia's as personifications:kiss::kiss::dead: but I'm at peace with it now as it's another Julio-Claudi portrait:singing: Admittedly not as nice as yours, nor my two other Julia's, Marc Breitsprecher gave me a great price and I was looking for a way to lick my wounds after getting trounced at some auction or other:
    48113-removebg-preview.png
    Claudia Julia Livia, nicknamed Livilla ("Little Livia"), was the daughter of Nero Claudius Drusus and Antonia Minor, and sister to Germanicus and the future emperor Claudius. Though Roman historians describe her as remarkably beautiful and charming, they also condemn her as a power-hungry adulteress and murderess. Tacitus accuses her of conspiring with her lover, the Praetorian Prefect Sejanus, to poison her husband, the imperial heir Drusus Caesar, who died in AD 23. This coin, struck in the name of Drusus shortly before his death, depicts on the obverse a veiled and classically beautiful woman as Pietas, goddess of religious piety and dutifulness. David Vagi has argued convincingly that the head represents Livilla, given that the other bronze coins issued the same year depict Drusus himself and the couple's twin sons, forming a "family set."

    Where have I seen that Tiberius of yours before;)
    share5181588489343330270.png
    Tiberius
    AD 14-37 CE. AR Denarius minted at Lugdunum. Laureate head right of Tiberius. Reverse: Female figure (Livia?) seated right. RIC 26; BMC 34. Appealing portrait; Choice Very Fine.
    The "Tribute Penny" of Biblical fame.

    Cherry coins, as always, @octavius :artist::cigar:
    Here's my lemon Germanicus:
    share7670208255356110135.png

    Cool Tiberius @hotwheelsearl I don't recognize the type. Where is it from and what's it portraying?
    Very nice condition, cool coin and even cooler due to being from Phillippi Macedon. Named after ATGs dad Philip II!
    I do find it interesting that the OP coin has a similarity with this coin minted the year of Caesar's birth. Two dudes sitting next to each other talking:
    image00449.jpg
    Q. Servilius Caepio, 100 BC. Denarius (Silver, 19.5 mm, 3.87 g, 11 h), Rome. PISO · / CAEPIO · Q Laureate head of Saturn to right; behind, harpa; below, trident. Rev. AD · FRV · EMV / EX · S · C Two quaestors seated left on stools between two wheat stalks. Babelon (Calpurnia) 5. Crawford 330/1a. Sydenham 603. Die-break on obverse, otherwise, very fine.
    From the Trausnitz Collection, ex G. Hirsch 187, 19 September 1995, 865
    Purchased from Nomos Obols Feb 2021
     

    Attached Files:

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