A Very Strange Diocletian Abdication Follis

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Paul Bulgerin, May 12, 2022.

  1. Paul Bulgerin

    Paul Bulgerin New Member

    I recently purchased this abdication follis of Diocletian but it has me puzzled in a number of ways.

    The obverse legend reads D N DIOCLETIANO FELICISSINO SEN AEG instead of the listed D N DIOCLETIANO FELICISSIMO SEN AVG.

    The reverse legend reads PROVIDENTIA DEORVM QVICT AVGG instead of the usual PROVIDENTIA DEORVM QVIES AVGG.

    I also can’t find the mint mark BM (dot) SD for Serdica. RIC only seems to show (dot) BM (dot) SD (dot) as an option.

    The coin looks good and I don't think it's a modern counterfeit. It’s in very high grade and is mostly silvered. It weighs 8.46 grams and is 27 mm. in diameter.

    Are these simply blundered legends on both sides along with a blundered mint mark? Is this some sort of imitative (which I haven’t heard of for these large coins)? Any ideas out there?

    upload_2022-5-12_15-36-6.jpeg

    upload_2022-5-12_15-36-19.jpeg
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Tooled? It looks very odd.
     
  4. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I think the N vs M is just a celator doing a poor job of separating the strokes
     
    Spaniard likes this.
  5. Spaniard

    Spaniard Well-Known Member

    I agree with @hotwheelsearl in regards to the N vs M......But the other letters are T vs S and E vs V.....Certainly something going on there!?....I don't know about others but zooming in I think I can see the standard dot BM dot SD dot mint ?....Interesting coin?
     
  6. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    The puzzling point is that strange appearance of the coin.
     
  7. romismatist

    romismatist Well-Known Member

    There has definitely been some smoothing around the letters and in the fields but it appears to be a genuine coin. Perhaps the celator just blundered the legends. I suspect it would be difficult to tool a coin with the original silvering, which may flake off in the process...
     
    ominus1 likes this.
  8. akeady

    akeady Well-Known Member

    Shouldn't there be an oficina letter in the lower centre field, between the two figures? A very unusual coin!

    ATB,
    Aidan.
     
  9. Romancollector

    Romancollector Well-Known Member

    ominus1 and sand like this.
  10. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    I would have stayed away from that hot mess. Shame it's the OP coin.
     
    sand likes this.
  11. Heliodromus

    Heliodromus Well-Known Member

    Very strange looking coin!

    Heavily tooled then resilvered?
     
    Severus Alexander likes this.
  12. romismatist

    romismatist Well-Known Member

    The more I look at this coin, the more it's clear that someone's done a real job on it. If you look at Diocletian's beard, it looks like all the peck marks were applied... there's also an extra row on his neck that I don't think appears on pristine coins. On the reverse, the folds of the figures togas also feel applied. They've also really gouged out some of the letters. Reminds me of that thread we had on tooling some time ago that got everyone hot under the collar...
     
  13. Heliodromus

    Heliodromus Well-Known Member

    It seems there must have been a lot of material removed to create the vertical of the B in the BD.SD mintmark, given an assumed SM.SD original. The weird appearance of the silvering, and presence of silvering at all given all the material removed by tooling, would indicate the silvering is modern.

    Very odd.

    Seems an awful lot of trouble to go to for a not very valuable type, but hard to imagine that with all the blundering it could be untouched original. It doesn't make sense as 100% modern either, else why mess it up so badly?
     
    Severus Alexander, ominus1 and sand like this.
  14. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    @Paul Bulgerin Welcome to CoinTalk ancients.
    @Romancollector Good job finding that.
    I wonder why, a major auction house like Roma, would sell a coin, that the auction house describes as "heavily tooled and smoothed".
    I wonder, if the OP bought the coin from Roma, or if the OP bought the coin, from someone else, who bought the coin from Roma.
    For me, this is not a good look, for Roma.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
    ominus1 likes this.
  15. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    55L seems to be quite a bit for that type in general, let alone a "heavily tooled and smoothed" example.
     
    sand likes this.
  16. Paul Bulgerin

    Paul Bulgerin New Member

    Thanks for all the responses which have shed light on this coin. I didn't buy it from Roma Numismatics but picked it up recently on eBay. I didn't pay much for it which now seems like a very good thing.
     
    ominus1, DonnaML, red_spork and 2 others like this.
  17. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I hope it wasn't more than 20 USD.
    You can get reasonable abdications for good prices.
    I picked this one up for about $13
    Diocletian AE Follis RIC VI Serdics 15a B.JPG
     
    ominus1, Bing, DonnaML and 1 other person like this.
  18. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ...welcome the the dark side @Paul Bulgerin ...interesting coin too, great way to start a conversation here ^^ :)
     
  19. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Very weird and even weirder that silvering may have been re-applied in the modern era. Here is an untooled and "normal" example from my collection:

    Diocletian (A.D. 284-305) AE Follis

    Weight: 6.90 grams

    Diameter: 23 mm

    Mint: Follis struck at Alexandria (ALE Mintmark) between 308 and 310, after his abdication.

    Obverse: DN DIOCLETIANO BAEATISS, laurel-wreathed bust right wearing mantle, holding olive branch and holding mappa in the other hand.

    Reverse: PROVIDENTIA DEORVM, Providentia standing right, extending right hand to Quies, standing left, holding branch and sceptre.

    Reference: Sear 12922, RIC VI Alexandria 80 corr.

    [​IMG]
     
    Roman Collector, Bing and ominus1 like this.
  20. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    I agree with the consensus tooling assessment, just wanted to add that adding silvering to genuine coins wasn't that uncommon in the 19th century. Perhaps that's the explanation here.

    Here's my abdication follis (Rome mint):
    diocletian abdication.jpg
     
    Roman Collector, Bing and sand like this.
  21. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    This should be posted around a campfire close to autumn when people gather round to tell horror stories.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page