If TPGs guaranteed authenticity for ancients would you use them?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Gam3rBlake, May 6, 2022.

  1. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    No, if NGC were to change its policy on guaranteeing the authenticity of ancients, I would still prefer not have my coins slabbed, for the fundamental reason that I prefer "raw" ancients versus slabbed ancients.

    There's one other wrinkle. If NGC or another TPG slabs an ancient, with the guarantee of authenticity, analysis needed to determine if the coin is indeed authentic would necessitate, in most circumstances, less the coin is so obviously a fake based on appearance, removal of the coin from the slab for various tests and magnification. Generally, removal of a coin from a slab is not condoned by the TPG services. I do not know how this issue can be addressed to everyone's satisfaction.
     
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  3. nerosmyfavorite68

    nerosmyfavorite68 Well-Known Member

    It certainly wouldn't make me slab my coins. I have zero interest in resale, so there's really no point for me.

    Some coins also look way better out of the slab. For example, the mirror-like surfaces of my new Tiberius III show up better in a flip.
     
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  4. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Insider, posted this:

    Authenticity is an absolute fact.

    So there can only be three choices. They are:

    1. Genuine. :happy:

    2. Not Genuine. :happy:
    a. Counterfeit.
    b. Altered genuine coin.

    3. No opinion. :happy:

    a. Opinion divided.
    b. Unable to tell due to coin's condition.
    c. We don't want to risk an opinion. :(


    IdesOfMarch01, replied: "Let's start by defining "authenticity" in the context of ancient coins." [If anyone reading this thread does not know what "authenticity" means - including all coins, tokens, metals, paper money, purses, stamps, jewels, and yes, even ANCIENTS, they :bucktooth: probably should not be posting :muted: in the thread. However, you :bookworm::cigar: have done something very necessary that I :eggface::facepalm::blackeye: or someone else should have done at the beginning - DEFINE THE TOPIC. :oops::sorry:] I would propose the following criteria for an ancient coin to be judged "authentic:" [I think everyone, including me can agree with what you wrote below. Unfortunately, in my rush to leave the thread yesterday, I used the word "fact" to emphasize that there is ONLY ONE ACTUAL "TRUTH" about a coin's authenticity. Humans, living at a later time, TRY THEIR BEST to determine that "truth" often with mixed or incorrect conclusions.:(]

    1. The coin was struck during the time period it was purported to be struck (this excludes modern forgeries struck or cast with ancient flans).

    2. The coin was struck by an official mint or moneyer acting within its purview. (This excludes ancient forgeries struck unofficially and also excludes ancient fourees).

    3. The coin is of the type that it is purported to be; i.e., it isn't an ancient flan that was re-engraved to be a different type from its original strike.

    Using this definition, I would argue that all purportedly ancient coins are, in an absolute sense, either authentic or not authentic. Note that this is not logically the same as asserting that authenticity is an absolute fact. [100% AUTHENTICITY IS A "FACT." Humans, may not be able to determine it at some point in time. "Expert" opinions have been known to change both ways.]

    "I would next argue that it is impossible to prove, on an absolute basis, whether or not a purportedly ancient coin is authentic, so its authenticity really is judged on a continuum of opinions and judgments over a period of time." [I consider this to be your personal "fluff" used to cloud the subject of authenticity. We don't need to "prove" the sun is in the sky. That's why we can say in the business: "Some coins are self-authenticating." I'll bet you and other CT members own a bunch of them! ;):smuggrin:]

    "Finally, I will reassert an opinion that I wrote previously on this site that it makes no financial sense for a TPG to insure a coin for its purchase value, since the TPG didn't sell the coin originally. The dealer who sold the coin has some recourse in the event the coin is proved a forgery, since he/she can go back to the original seller for reimbursement. TPGs don't have this recourse and coupled with the limited and unique nature of ancient coins (as opposed to the commodity nature of modern graded coins), it would be difficult at best to provide full purchase-price insurance."

    And finally, I can get to the subject of this thread:

    If TPGs guaranteed authenticity for ancients would you use them?

    Unfortunately, :( that will need to wait. My mother comes first. Happy Mothers' Day!

    PS Gam3rBlake, asked if super expensive coins have been slabbed and later determined to be fake? Without throwing stones because no person or TPGS is perfect - unfortunately, yes. Expensive coins and in one case a group of super expensive coins.
    :muted:
     
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  5. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Really difficult to know what of this is yours...maybe just me
     
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  6. The Meat man

    The Meat man Supporter! Supporter

    I think Inisder's stuff is in the brackets.
     
    Insider likes this.
  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Kentucky, posted: "Really difficult to know what of this is yours...maybe just me."

    No, lots of folks don't like it and others cannot figure it out either. Sorry about that but it is easier for me to interject [stuff] at the point of comment. So, all the following are my comments:

    Insider, posted this:

    Authenticity is an absolute fact.

    So there can only be three choices. They are:

    1. Genuine. :happy:

    2. Not Genuine. :happy:
    a. Counterfeit.
    b. Altered genuine coin.

    3. No opinion. :happy:

    a. Opinion divided.
    b. Unable to tell due to coin's condition.
    c. We don't want to risk an opinion. :(


    Insider replied to a member's post by inserting this:

    [If anyone reading this thread does not know what "authenticity" means - including all coins, tokens, metals, paper money, purses, stamps, jewels, and yes, even ANCIENTS, they :bucktooth: probably should not be posting :muted: in the thread. However, you :bookworm::cigar: have done something very necessary that I :eggface::facepalm::blackeye: or someone else should have done at the beginning - DEFINE THE TOPIC. :oops::sorry:]

    [I think everyone, including me can agree with what you wrote below. Unfortunately, in my rush to leave the thread yesterday, I used the word "fact" to emphasize that there is ONLY ONE ACTUAL "TRUTH" about a coin's authenticity. Humans, living at a later time, TRY THEIR BEST to determine that "truth" often with mixed or incorrect conclusions.:(]

    [100% AUTHENTICITY IS A "FACT." Humans, may not be able to determine it at some point in time. "Expert" opinions have been known to change both ways.]

    [I consider this to be your personal "fluff" used to cloud the subject of authenticity. We don't need to "prove" the sun is in the sky. That's why we can say in the business: "Some coins are self-authenticating." I'll bet you and other CT members own a bunch of them! ;):smuggrin:]

    And finally, I can get to the subject of this thread:

    If TPGs guaranteed authenticity for ancients would you use them?

    ________________________________________________________

    The following is my opinion on the OP's original question.

    1. Ancient coins are a "special" part of numismatics. They cover a much larger area and time span than US coins. They have been collected longer and counterfeited longer. Without specialization, there is more to learn so the field is much more difficult to master with any degree of competency including the language barrier and condition of preservation.

    2. Ancient coins were collected long before our country was discovered. Therefore, there will probably be more knowledge about them (even with the Internet and publications) in the rest of the world.

    3. Except for those interested in counterfeits, it is best to collect genuine coins so in this day and age authentication is highly recommended when collecting popular coins. NEVERTHELESS, some folks don't like slabs!

    Aside from that, here is the problem as I see it:

    A. Any serious student of numismatics should be able to identify what they collect.

    B. Any serious student of numismatics should be able to grade anything they collect and also have a reasonable idea of its value.

    C. Authentication is something that is more difficult even for serious students of numismatics, expert dealers, museums, and European Banks.

    So, TPGS are needed. Unfortunately, without a guarantee of authenticity, as is required for TPGS's dealing with US and world coins, you are paying for nothing more than you can get from a reputable dealer. :jawdrop::facepalm: However, you do get an attractive plastic case with expert opinions on the label. :yawn::D

    So, I'll circle back again to the question. Would more folks use NGC if there were a guarantee of authenticity? IMHO, they would be stupid not to! Additionally, IMHO, NGC would be stupid to offer that guarantee since they do very well and get away without it! ;)

    Replies to this welcome. My answers to them will appear as
    [stuff] between the lines.
     
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  8. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    What does TPG stand for?
     
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  9. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Third party grader?
     
    Spaniard likes this.
  10. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    WOW, glad you cleared that up :)
     
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  11. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    Thanks, sounds plausible!
     
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  12. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    I understood. Those of you who don't might ask the OP rather than ask me. Oh, cutiseclay, do you have an opinion on the OP's question. DonnaML gave hers.

    And I'd like to apologize :oops::sorry: to anyone who does not like to slab their coins even with a change to the presently non-existing guarantee. You are not stupid. I was referring to folks who would use NGC if ancients were guaranteed - and did not.
     
  13. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    Insider,

    I wasn't specifically asking you, just anyone who happened to know and wanted to help.

    I would not use third-party grading, even with guarantee of authenticity.
     
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  14. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    That along with the Rainbow Brite font is the equivalent of an attorney dressed as a clown giving you legal advice, hard to take them seriously.
     
  15. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    I already only collect slabbed ancients, so the "Would you" question doesn't really apply to me.

    That being said....I certainly wouldn't mind a guarantee from NGC, it would be comforting to know that money would be recouped if a purchase was proven fake. However, I understand why they do not offer such a thing......Ancient coin authenticity can only be determined to a certain point based on educated opinion as opposed to certain determination. How can you guarantee that someone else's opinion won't differ from your own?

    Coins are stamped pieces of metal. There is not much to go on when determining whether it was created last week or 2k years ago. Methods for distinguishing would be chemical in nature, being associated with the metallurgy and/or surface aging processes. However, so long as forgers know what the evaluators are looking for, these things can can also be accelerated and/or reproduced with modern techniques.

    All we are left with is the best guess of experts that have experience in making these types of determinations. The guys at NGC are experts, and a coin being slabbed means that, in their opinion, it is authentic. Their opinion on the subject is a LOT more meaningful than my own, so I feel that buying slabbed coins is the most efficient way for me to collect ancient coins while being as secure in authenticity as can be expected.

    In any case, TPG's reputations are riding on the fact that their evaluations can be trusted. Slabbing forgeries left and right would put NGC Ancients out of business pretty quick. It's not a guarantee per se, but I find this reality reassuring when making my purchases.
     
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  16. The Meat man

    The Meat man Supporter! Supporter

    100%. I don't see how you could get much closer to a "guarantee of authenticity" than you already get with NGC. They have ancient coin experts who scrutinize thousands and thousands of coins. Part of their job is to spot fakes. If that kind of experience isn't enough of a guarantee, then frankly I don't know what is.
     
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  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    This answer is simple. NGC Ancients was created to enable people who know nothing to buy ancient coins from people who know less than nothing. By opening the market to ten times as many people with money to spend and no way of telling a good seller from a bad one, they have made quite a business out of plastic boxes. I have some respect for the higher priced, full service (1/5 to 5/5 service) slabs where a genuine expert looked at the coin for a second or an hour as required BUT NGC and several other companies also accept input of huge numbers of presorted coins that get bargain / bulk slabs on coins that were glanced over as a group. I suspect some coins are kicked out of such groups but I have no idea how many. At a show this weekend I saw a stack of about 300 NGC slabbed Widow's Mites. I strongly suspect that all were genuine. The same dealer had nicer coins cheaper (under half) but those were in flips. Slabs have given people a choice. I guess that is good but I'm not sure it is good for the hobby as I know it. Why should a big dealer hire and train another generation of expert numismatists when you can mail off the stuff and pay a clerk to fill orders?

    I wish that you had posted a view of that whole slab with label. I know no one in the market for such a coin would pay extra for knowing what is 'special' about that coin. I sold the one below for less than the price of postage to send the thing to Florida and back but mine is not as interesting and has at least as many faults. The plastic coin will sell for 10x the 'free' one. That is why slabs exist. rp1600xx2458.jpg

    Yup...and that is why we see Coin Talk degenerating to the same half dozen posts over and over and over again. Relatively few people search to see if something has been covered in the last week let alone the several years that people like Mat and TIF have been trying to make this place worthwhile. Few people would listen to what they would say anyway. Everyone gets to a point they miss the good old days. I apologize to the management of CT for once suggesting this might be a place to discuss World coins other than Euros (back when the non-US section of CT was labelled World Coins including the Euros.
     
  18. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Here you go, @dougsmit. There's nothing special about that coin. Nothing on the label but the coveted "Ch XF," which means nothing to anyone who has handled a Gallienus antoninianus or two.

    Capture 3.JPG Capture 4.JPG
     
  19. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

  20. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    I would not buy an ancient coin based on some third party telling me that the coin in question is absolutely guaranteed as ancient. There are so many variables that I think it is impossible, given the huge number of ancients on the market and the very clever ways coins can be falsified (and have been for centuries), that any kind of guarantee would be meaningful other than a number of people (experts?) have examined the coin and think it probably is what it is purported to be. Jeeze, i can do that for nothing and my opinion would be worth just that and nothing more. Getting stuck with fake coins is one of the certainties of collecting ancients. Collect enough of them and I can guarantee some of them, statistically, will not turn out not to be what they are said to be. One learns what are signs of fraud (cast coins, pressed coins, wrong metals, wrong weights, etc), who has acquired a reputation for selling junk, all the while studying as much as possible about ancients (and enjoying that part of the hobby) and accept the fact that if one acquires a large collection that some of them will not turn out to be what you had hoped they would be. And when some of them are eventually shown to be fraudulent put them in a black cabinet and collect them as curiosities and examples of that aspect of collecting ancient coins. If there is something in life that want absolute, metaphysical certitude about, don't try to make it the certainty that an ancient coin is a genuine ancient coin.
     
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