Request for help identifying mystery piece

Hi,

Any help in identifying this piece will be greatly appreciated. It is copper, 14mm x 16mm and weighs approximately 20 grains.

I believe that the obverse depicts St Patrick (SP) leaning over a parishioner. The reverse MAY have the letters "L F".

This was found in England, at a port on the east side of the island.

Thank you,
ARGuy

 

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Interesting! I have no idea. I'm interested to hear what the experts have to say.

 

I think might be a " St.Patricks Copper"
Here ya go

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/StPat.intro.html

 

Thanks, but I'm very familiar with the St. Patrick coppers and this isn't one of them. Photos of mine attached.

The style on the square piece seems crude, possibly indicatong an earlier date or perhaps a siege piece.

Doesn't match any tokens in Boyne and a friend checked a coin weight reference and didn't find it. I think it's probably too light and thin for that anyway.

The curator at the Irish National Museum is looking as well, but hasn't made any progress.

Thanks again for your reply.

 

A few more tidbits:

I'm not sure that it's even Irish. After all, it was found on the side of England that faces away from Ireland. But, my sense is that it is Irish and represents St Patrick.

The seller thought that the reverse letters LF meant "Limerick Farthing". However, I can't be sure that the letters are really LF. And, aside from the 1690's Limerick issues, of which this isn't one, I don't know that I've ever heard of a Limerick coinage from that period.

There is a record of some Irish towns under seige producing "coins" in leather and other materials, but no one knows what they looked like.

 

Perhaps this is a [medieval] communion token?

Any chance you could post larger photos?

 

CheetahCats,

Thanks. That is a strong possibility. Do you happen to know when communion tokens came into use and where?

Some of the recent discussion around Newby's coins has suggested that THEY might have been intended as something like communion or tithing tokens. While my interest in this piece stems from the study of them, I don't think it is directly related to them.

The only other Irish St Patrick pieces that I know of from the 17th century are Richard Grenwood's farthing tokens and an allusion to an issue from Lea Castle that supposedly bore a large "L" on each piece. The latter caused me to consider the possibility that this piece might be part of that issue. But, I doubt it. It seems too early - Medieval - as you mentioned.

I'm traveling this week and don't have access to the "coin". But, I will try to obtain some better photos next week. In the mean time, attached are some tracings that I did from enlarged photos that I no longer have, of what I THINK the piece depicts.

Thanks again!

 

A few more thoughts...

My gut leans me to believe that this is some kind of communion or church token, and medieval, perhaps earlier than the 17th century. I don't necessarily think that it has to depict Saint Patrick, but rather it may be Saint Paul or Saint Peter. (Just because it came from England, and proximity to Ireland, doesn't necessarily mean it has to be St. Patrick, or a Limerick Farthing.)

Many coins/tokens [of the era] include[d] Roman numerals. Are you confident the reverse is "L...F"? I was looking at the reverse image last night, keying on the image's luminosity, coloring, brightness, and contrast, and thought I could almost make out a slanted V after the L. When you traced the reverse, was the reverse "raised" in any way between the "L...F"?

 

CheetahCats,

My 14-year-old has a friend whose dad holds PhD in medieval history. I showed him the piece a few weeks ago. He also commented that it might be Peter or Paul. He agreed to show photos of it to a colleague who specializes in iconography, but I've not heard back. I had hoped that that exercise would at least help narrow the date.

Also, it actually was found at “an old port site at Blythbourgh in Suffolk," which is on the side of England that faces AWAY from Ireland. So, I agree that it may not be Irish and may not depict St Patrick. On the other hand, the fact that it was found at a port site prevents me from ruling out a non-local origin.

The only reverse features that I can be certain about are the "L" and the ornaments at the bottom. The "F" is speculative at best. The "Limerick Farthing" idea is not mine, but the seller's. The area between L and "F" may be raised, but I don't think I can rule out the idea that striking the obverse caused the reverse to be convex. There does appear to be something at the top center, but I can't tell what it is. The tracing represents my best guess about it's shape.

My sense is that finding a picture of one in better condition is more likely to reveal its secrets than discerning what's on this piece. It's pretty far gone and I don't think that the reverse was well struck. I plan to contact the curator at the Irish Museum to introduce myself and see if he has made any progress. I have a letter to the original owner from him.

You have to agree that it's at least interesting.

Thanks again.

 

Cool Coins !!

 

Silly question - is it thick or thin? If thin, I would check with provincial and tradesmen farthings of the 17th century. If thick, I would check with coin weights.

Try browsing through some of the entries here:
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/index.php?cat=1

 

Thanks MPCUSA!

 

Ardatirion,

Not a silly question at all. It's really in-between - probably closer to the thickness of a tradesman's token than to coin weights that I've observed. Certainly thin enough to have taken a slightly cupped shape. That shaped may have protected the obverse and caused extra wear on the reverse.

In an earlier note, I indicated (from memory) that it weighs about 20 grains. It actually weighs 18.3 grains, neither of which is not inconsistent with the trade tokens. It "looks and feels" as if should weigh less than it does. I first thought that it might be made of leather or some other material, but then I observed a small dig that exposes fresh copper. I don't believe that it is listed in William Boynes' 1858 work on tradesmen tokens. (See link below.) Also, a friend looked for it unsuccessfully in a coin weight reference. I don't know what that reference was, but can contact him to find out.

Thank you for taking an interest.

http://books.google.com/books?id=g2...yne+farthing+tokens&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

BTW, that British detecting finds site is terrific. Haven't found this piece yet, but thanks for sharing it!

 

Okay, it's looking like it's a coin weight for some fractional denomination of a Philipsgulden of Philip the Fair, possibly from Antwerp. I found a similar piece at

http://time-lines.co.uk/antique-coin-weights-2324-0.html

I'm saying fractional because the one I have is a little more than half the weight of this one.

Now looking for a photo of a philipsgulden to see who/what it depicts.

(Possibly St Philip???)

 

nice job! i think you may be onto something. how many zillions of sites did you have to surf before you found that link?

 

CheetahCats,

Thanks, but I just got lucky - and still have some work to do on it. (I had been to this site in another life.)

I see that you are active in American "colonials" - in C4?

 

Just recently, and yourself?

 

Very good catch! I'd been to that very page before looking for another British weight. That would explain why your piece seemed familiar to me.

Sometimes the only efficient way to ID these is to wait until you just stumble across one.

 

You are so right. I'm pretty comfortable researching pieces back to 1600, but prior to that blind luck plays a big role for me.