Astonishing MOU with Afghanistan

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Valentinian, Apr 24, 2022.

  1. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Dr. Alan Walker of Nomos in Switzerland wrote about the upcoming Nomos auction and about a new MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) that might have the US sending Roman and Greek coins to Afghanistan as their "cultural heritage". The next long part of this post is all Alan's words (with his permission) and far below, below the horizontal dividing line, is the part about coins copied from the US State Department's website.

    Alan's words:

    There will be more highlights next time, but now it seems a good idea to let you all know about the latest action taken by the US State Department, with the support of a number of scholars, including numismatists, in order to safe guard the world's cultural heritage.

    Somewhat astoundingly, many scholars and archaeologists have joined with the US Department of Homeland Security and the US State Department in pushing through a MOU (= Memorandum of Understanding) with the TALIBAN Government of Afghanistan to protect Afghanistan's Cultural Heritage: the MOU came into force on 18 February, but was only published on the 22nd, almost exactly six months after the US completely withdrew from Afghanistan! In other words, soon, thanks to agencies of the US Government, all sorts of items will be confiscated on entry into the USA and then returned to the TALIBAN Government of Afghanistan for preservation. No doubt, now that Afghan women are no longer allowed to be educated, travel, drive, think for themselves, work in offices, dress in anything other than a sack with eyeholes, etc., etc., but are allowed and encouraged to marry at the age of 10, perhaps the now liberal and modern Taliban government will give these items to those women so that they can play with them - if they have some free time left from cooking, cleaning, having babies, or serving male relatives as is their proper place in life. And this rule was enacted by two agencies of the US Government that are filled with what we always assumed were bright, intelligent, energetic, competent, take-charge, stand-on-their-own-two-feet, feminist women! In reality, do they all sit by the door so that they can be seen but not heard, while policy is made by "the guys"?

    Worse than this is what is actually in the MOU with the Taliban/Afghanistan (here is the link so that you can read it in its entirety; but let's just look at some of the sections on coins (C. Metal, 5. Coins, sections a. - r.):

    Coins, §b. "During the reign of Darius I, gold staters and silver sigloi were produced in Bactria and Gandhara. Approximate date: 586-550 B.C." Could this be some other Darius than the one we know (born 550, reigned 522-486)? And I had always thought that Persian gold Darics and silver Sigloi were first minted in Sardes and never in the East, but I suppose the scholars advising the State Department (or the Taliban?) know better.

    Coins, §f. "Gold staters and silver tetradrachms were produced locally after Alexander the Great conquered the region. Approximate date: 327-323 B.C." What are these supposed to be????? They are not in Price, nor in anything else I can check. But those scholars know better ... I guess. Perhaps they have been published privately?

    Coins, §h. "Common Roman Imperial coins found in archaeological contexts in Afghanistan were struck in silver and bronze. Approximate date: 1st century B.C.-4th century A.D."

    Think about this for a minute or two ... could it be that from now on any late Roman Republican or Imperial coin, from the Social Wars to Theodosius I and without a known find spot, is going to be stopped going into the United States because it might have been found in AFGHANISTAN? Now it is true that at certain times Roman silver and gold coins did reach southern India, often in considerable numbers (coins of Augustus, Tiberius and the Severans, for example); and some also reached China (primarily earlier Byzantine solidi); so the occasional Roman coin was bound to have reached the area of Afghanistan - but in numbers sufficient to justify a blanket ban on their import into the USA?

    ✧✧✧✧✧✧✧✧✧✧✧✧

    Sorry for being both cynical and satiric, but what else can one say? No one can possibly be against the safe-guarding of a nation's cultural heritage from loss, but the idea that more-or-less everything ever made by human beings from the Palaeolithic through 1900 is a treasure that needs to be under guard in a museum (or, more likely, in storerooms) is sheer madness (here is just one group of metal objects from the Taliban/Afghan MOU: Tools and Instruments—Types include, but are not limited to, axes, bells, blades, hooks, keys, knives, pins, projectiles, rakes, sickles, spoons, staffs, trowels, weights, and tools of craftpersons such as carpenters, masons, and metal smiths. Approximate date: 3000 B.C.-A.D. 1747). Can any rational person explain how hooks, rakes, spoons and trowels, not to mention Roman silver and bronze coins, can possibly be of any importance whatsoever for the cultural heritage of Afghanistan?

    __________________________________________________________

    US State Department document list of restricted items, the complete part about coins, quoted:

    5. Coins— Ancient coins include gold, silver, copper, and bronze coins; may be hand stamped with units ranging from tetradrachms to dinars; includes gold bun ingots and silver ingots, which may be plain and/or inscribed. Some of the most well-known types are described below:

    a. The earliest coins in Afghanistan are Greek silver coins, including tetradrachms and drachmae. Approximate date: 530-333 B.C.

    b. During the reign of Darius I, gold staters and silver sigloi were produced in Bactria and Gandhara. Approximate date: 586-550 B.C.

    c. Achaemenid coins include round punch-marked coins with one or two punched holes and bent bar coins ( shatamana ). Approximate date: 5th century B.C.

    d. Gandhara coins include janapadas, bent bar coins based on the silver sigloi weight. Approximate date: 4th century B.C.

    e. Mauryan coins include silver karshapanas with five punches, six arm designs, and/or sun symbols. Weights ranged from 5.5 to 7.2 gm. Approximate date: 322-185 B.C.

    f. Gold staters and silver tetradrachms were produced locally after Alexander the Great conquered the region. Approximate date: 327-323 B.C.

    g. Greco-Bactrian coins include gold staters, silver tetradrachms, silver and bronze drachms, and a small number of punch-marked coins. The bust of the king with his name written in Greek and Prakit were on the obverse, and Greek deities and images of Buddha were on the reverse. Approximate date: 250-125 B.C.

    h. Common Roman Imperial coins found in archaeological contexts in Afghanistan were struck in silver and bronze. Approximate date: 1st century B.C.-4th century A.D.

    i. Kushan Dynasty coins include silver tetradrachms, copper coin (Augustus type), bronze diadrachms and gold dinars. Imagery includes portrait busts of each king with his emblem ( tamgha) on both sides. Classical Greek and Zoroastrian deities and images of the Buddha are depicted on the reverse. Approximate date: A.D. 19-230.

    j. Sassanian coins include silver drachms, silver half drachms, obols ( dang), copper drahms and gold dinars, and gold coins of Shapur II (A.D. 309-379). Starting with Peroz I, mint indication was included on the coins. Sassanian coins may include imagery of Zoroastrian Fire Temples. Approximate date: A.D. 224-651.

    k. Hephthalite coins include silver drachms, silver dinars, and small copper and bronze coins. The designs were the same as Sassanian, but they did not put the rulers' names on the coins. Hephthalite coins may include imagery of Zoroastrian Fire Temples. Approximate date: 5th-8th centuries A.D.

    l. Turk Shahis coins include silver and copper drachma with portraits of the rulers wearing a distinctive triple crescent crown. The emblems of these Buddhist Turks were also included on the coin. Inscriptions were in Bactrian. Approximate date: A.D. 665-850.

    m. Shahiya or Shahis of Kabul coins include silver, bronze, and copper drachma with inscriptions of military and chief commanders. Hindu imagery is included on the coin design. The two main types of images are the bull and horseman and the elephant and lion. Approximate date: A.D. 565-879.

    n. Chinese coins belonging primarily to the Tang Dynasty are found in archaeological contexts in Afghanistan. Approximate date: A.D. 618-907.

    o. Ghaznavid coins include gold dinars with bilingual inscriptions, Islamic titles in Arabic and Sharda and images of Shiva, Nandi, and Samta Deva. Approximate date: A.D. 977-1186.

    p. Ghurid coins include silver and gold tangas with inscriptions and abstract goddess iconography. Approximate date: A.D. 879-1215.

    q. Timurid coins include silver and copper tangas and copper dinars, both coin types are decorated with Arabic inscriptions. Approximate date: A.D. 1370 -1507.

    r. Mughal coins include shahrukhi, gold mithqal, gold mohur, silver rupee, copper dams, and copper falus. The iconography varies, depending on the ruler, but popular designs include images of the Hindu deities Sita and Ram, portrait busts of the rulers, and the twelve zodiac signs. Approximate date: A.D. 1526-1857.
     
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  3. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Nothing amazes me anymore:(
     
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  4. Limes

    Limes Well-Known Member

    Ah yes, we all know how fond those Taliban are of their heritage.

    20101120__20101121_A24_ND21BUDDHASp1.jpg
     
  5. nerosmyfavorite68

    nerosmyfavorite68 Well-Known Member

    And I'm sure they won't turn right around and sell it to other countries! They can even deliver the items with a bunch of leftover equipment!

    All this MOU crap is pretty reprehensible.
     
    sand likes this.
  6. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Nothing surprises me anymore :(. I feel like all the rebuttal letters I wrote in the past about these insane MOUs was like "pissing against the wind" :mad:.
     
  7. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    The statement by Dr. Walker is in my opinion unfortunate and a complete mischaracterization. The document is not a bilateral memorandum of understanding but a unilateral 'emergency rule'. It remains unclear if and to whom any seized items would be returned. The document speaks for itself.

    To the best of my knowledge, no country has yet recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, certainly not the United States. In fact, I would characterize the order as recognition of the danger that the Taliban poses to the cultural heritage of Afghanistan. If I recall correctly, emergency orders regarding Afghan antiquities - including coins - have been in place since about 2005. This is simply the latest version.

    I think it's important to note that the emergency order several times relies on the phrase "found in archaeological contexts in Afghanistan". I am much more concerned with full MOUs that are in place with a number of nations and which already restrict the import of wide swaths of Greek, Roman imperial, Roman provincial and Byzantine coins.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2022
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  8. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the heads up.

    A similar MOU was made between the government of Yemen and the US in 2021. I was unaware of it and ordered a Qataban tetradrachm from Canada. The coin was detained by US Customs for three months for possibly being in violation of the MOU. Thankfully the matter was resolved in my favor, but not before several certified mailings with legal documents and other documentation. I will never order another of these coins, or now, Bactrian and other Afghan-related coins during the effective period of these MOUs. Why go looking for trouble?
     
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  9. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    If there was no free market for ancient items, anything made of silver or gold would be melted and sold for scrap in any developing country. The only reason a lot of these artifacts still exist is because the finders knew they were worth money intact.

    The country which has the right laws is England. Look how many finds are found and reported, bought by museums when needed and generally documented properly. All these laws that say everything belongs to the state everything's going to get sent back to their originating country just result in more artifacts being destroyed.
     
  10. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Brother can you spare a trime? Supporter

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  11. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I suppose by the former maitre d of the Afghan restaurant that became the prime minister Hamid karzai
     
  12. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    upload_2022-4-24_21-47-12.png
     

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  13. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Interesting to read that the largest part of my coin collection has been declared illegal for import in the US.
    I wonder if the "US State Department document list of restricted items" in the start post really is the official text ? For it is so infested with spelling errors, terminology mix-ups and plain errors that it seems like it was written by the youngest apprentice based on browsing 30 minutes on Wikipedia ?
    Limiting myself to some of the areas i have more than some basic knowledge:

    "d. Gandhara coins include janapadas, bent bar coins based on the silver sigloi weight. Approximate date: 4th century B.C."
    - So they mean that a Janapada is a type of coin ? For it isn't. A Janapada was an ancient independent or semi-independent region (with its own coinage). Gandhara was just one of the classical Janapadas and actually the only one in Afghanistan. Culturally, it was clearly a part of the Indian society at the time.

    "g. Greco-Bactrian coins include gold staters, silver tetradrachms, silver and bronze drachms, and a small number of punch-marked coins. The bust of the king with his name written in Greek and Prakit were on the obverse, and Greek deities and images of Buddha were on the reverse. Approximate date: 250-125 B.C."
    -The time constraints imply that Greco-Bactrian coins minted in the Paropamisadae were meant here. However, large parts of the Greco-Bactrian territory were outside the current territory of Afghanistan.
    "Prakit" does not exist. Meant was "Prakrit" as local language. Whether the use of this term in this context is correct is a matter of opinion. It is far more correct and common to define the legend by the used Kharosthi script. Kharosthi and Greek were usually not together on the obverse.
    MenanderBop12Webb.jpg

    "i. Kushan Dynasty coins include silver tetradrachms, copper coin (Augustus type), bronze diadrachms and gold dinars. Imagery includes portrait busts of each king with his emblem ( tamgha) on both sides. Classical Greek and Zoroastrian deities and images of the Buddha are depicted on the reverse. Approximate date: A.D. 19-230."
    -About two-thirds of the Kushan territory was outside of Afghanistan. Kushan denominations are used in different manners, but diadrachms do not exist.
    HeliosHalfUnitWeb.jpg

    "m. Shahiya or Shahis of Kabul coins include silver, bronze, and copper drachma with inscriptions of military and chief commanders. Hindu imagery is included on the coin design. The two main types of images are the bull and horseman and the elephant and lion. Approximate date: A.D. 565-879.
    - The Turk Shahi of item "l" also formed the Turk Shahi dynasty of Kabul. So this point probably refers to the Hindu Shahi of Kabul. Whose reign and bull and horseman coinage only started at the beginning of the ninth century AD.
    The end date more ore less co-incides with the loss of Kabul to the Saffarids. Who are not usually included under the Kabul shahi, but did produce coinage there.
    Most "bull and horseman" coinage was produced after this date and more to the east in the Punjab, and thus legal. However, production of all "elephant and lion" coins likely only started in the 10th century AD,(also largely in the Punjab) so should not be mentioned here with this time frame.
    T2.1S2w.jpg

    "o. Ghaznavid coins include gold dinars with bilingual inscriptions, Islamic titles in Arabic and Sharda and images of Shiva, Nandi, and Samta Deva. Approximate date: A.D. 977-1186."
    - The bi-lingual coins in Sanskrit/Arab are silver Dirhams. They do not exist as gold Dinars. The Ghaznavids were strict Muslims. They would not tolerate coins with an image of Shiva. It looks like someone actually copied this sentence without understanding from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaznavid_bilingual_coinage
    there it reads: "portrayal of the Shaiva Bull, Nandi and the legend Shri samta deva". With "Shaiva" here is meant that the bull was an originally Shaivist symbol, not that Shiva was on the coins. "Samta Deva" is a misspelling of "Samanta Deva" which was copied literally.
    GZ3w.jpg

    "p. Ghurid coins include silver and gold tangas with inscriptions and abstract goddess iconography. Approximate date: A.D. 879-1215."
    -Again a large part of the Ghorid territory was outside Afghanistan. The "abstract goddess iconography" can only refer to the Lakshmi Staters which were the continuation of the city coinage of Kannauj and Bayana. Both these cities are located in India.
    KanaujStaterA.jpg

    "r. Mughal coins include shahrukhi, gold mithqal, gold mohur, silver rupee, copper dams, and copper falus. The iconography varies, depending on the ruler, but popular designs include images of the Hindu deities Sita and Ram, portrait busts of the rulers, and the twelve zodiac signs. Approximate date: A.D. 1526-1857."
    - Mughal Zodiac AR rupees and AV Mohurs were never minted in Afghanistan as far as i know.

    Now i feel sad and tired:
    EuthydemosIWeb.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
  14. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    Antiquities that could originate from Afghanistan had better be very well pedigreed and documented on entering US territory. Strong evidence must be produced that they were already outside Afghanistan prior to 1973 or a date like this... Mere papers saying they were in an old unverifiable family collection will not be considered evidence.

    The Taliban regime will not last forever and Afghanistan needs to protect its historical heritage. It is the responsibility of the civilized world to fight antiquities looting and pillaging, resulting in the destruction of archaeological sites and the definitive loss of information. I understand perfectly well such a MOU and I am very glad it has been issued.
     
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  15. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    "Afghanistan needs to protect its historical heritage."
    Most people here will agree with you. However, Islamists (not limited to the Taliban, and not just in Afghanistan,similarly for Pakistan) consider the pre-islamic history not as their heritage, but as a time of barbarism of which the memory should be erased. And that is not something i have made up, but was told directly by people directly affected by this in the region.

    "I understand perfectly well such a MOU and I am very glad it has been issued."
    So you are glad that the US issues official legislative texts which restrict the rights of individuals, based on factual inaccuracies and misquotes from Wikipedia ?
     
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  16. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    For me, the fact that there may be inaccuracies and misquotes is irrelevant. What is essential is that the US will not be the accomplice of looters and destructors of archaeological sites, and take action against this. I wish the UK, which seems to be the biggest market place for illegally sold antiquities, followed this example. In the present circumstances, any piece of antiquity that could originate from countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Palestinian territories, Libya, Mali, Nigeria should be seriously controlled when entering the territory of our western nations, and allowed in only if there is undisputable evidence they are clean. Not doing it is tolerating antiquities looting and money laundering, even making a profit from this criminal activity through taxes, and some day our countries may be sued for this by the nations victims of this trafficking.

    I don't think buying stolen goods is considered a "right of individuals" in any civilized nation.

    About the islamists, the question is not so simple. There are islamists who very officially value their pre-islamic heritage and are proud of it, it is the case of the Iranian government for example. It is also the case of the Hamas authorities in the Gaza strip, who protect antiquities. They find a political interest in doing so because these antiquities are Cananaite, Philistian, pagan Greek and Roman, Christian... but not Jewish! And they say they are evidence this land did not exclusively belong to the Jews at any moment in history. All islamists are not ISIS or Talibans...
     
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  17. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    In my opinion, there is no right or wrong answer, for this topic. In my opinion, there is just, what people want to do. If there is ever a vote, then I will vote, to allow anyone in the world, to own any ancient artifact, no matter who your ancestors were, and no matter where the artifact was created. I like the idea, that all cultures belong to all people. I like the idea, that no one "owns" a culture. I like the idea, that no one "owns" an idea. I like the idea, that no one "owns" a thought.

    Regarding stealing at archeological sites. Digging up artifacts, on someone else's land, is stealing. There are laws against stealing. That seems sufficient, to me. I prefer not to have MOUs.

    All of this, is just my theory/opinion/preference/blah/blah/blah.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
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  18. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    @GinoLR , i think our views against looting and cultural destruction do not differ very much. Our main difference seems to be that you think that "the goal justifies the means" applies here. I think that in a civilized justice system also the means should be just. Here, also coin categories which are not from Afganistan, nor ever circulated there, are officially labeled as "stolen from Afghanistan unless you prove otherwise". That's not my ideal of justice.
    Regarding the complexity of the relation between Islamism, politics and views on cultural heritage we also agree. That's why i limited my statement to the current Afghanistan/Pakistan area. Because that's the region these import rules apply to. (And a large proportion of antique coins now coming illegally from Afghanistan is exported through Pakistan)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
  19. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    Who writes these rules? As @THCoins points out, Janapadas were states, not coins. :banghead: Per Wikipedia (I know, not the best source, but reliable enough for this): "The Sanskrit term janapada is a compound term, composed of two words: janas and pada. Jana means "people" or "subject" (cf. Latin cognate genus, English cognate kin). The word pada means "foot" (cf. Latin cognate pedis); from its earliest attestation, the word has had a double meaning of "realm, territory" and "subject population" (cf. Hittite pedan, "place")."

    As far as I know, the nearest Mauryan mint to modern Afghanistan was hypothetically in Taxila, which is in modern Pakistan.

    Anyway, in my experience in academia dealing with the types of folks who support these rules, they tend to be overly idealistic, or just feel compelled to toe the line. There is little room for nuance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
  20. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Still, on the basis of the Mir Zakah hoards alone, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the majority of Mauryan coins in the marketplace over the last 30 years have been of Afghan origin. The Mir Zakah hoards contained an estimated 500,000 coins ranging from early punchmarked issues to Indo-Greek, Indo-Scythian and Indo-Parthian.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
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  21. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    My understanding is that quite a few of the Mir Zakah coins are still mouldering in Swiss bank vaults, but certainly some of them are out there (it’s even advertised in some auctions!). They do have a really unique patina, so they’re easy to identify. But that’s besides the fact - more to the point, take a guess as to what organizations were involved in smuggling those coins out of Afghanistan…
     
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