Feuchtwanger Token - Altered Surface - What is That?

I saw this and was curious, how has the surface been altered? Has it been smoothed? Tooled? What does "altered surface" mean in this case? I am leery of "altered surface" coins, I'm not sure why, I don't mind cleaned, scratched, minor damage or artificial color, even holed I will do. It looks kind of off to me. How do you feel about "altered surface" coins - any opinions on this one would be welcome! Sorry the pictures aren't better.

 

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I can’t tell by the photos but call NGC and make inquires about your coin and the altered surface. I’m sure they will inform you of why it was not graded and encapsulated.

 

Here is one I found XF 40 Detailshttps://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18602/lot/1480/
As far as the one you posted it looks cut and bent in more than one place.

 

Disclaimer: I worked at NGC and NCS for over ten years and I think they are the best TPGS of the top two.

Comment: The opinion on this coin is extremely disturbing to me. They say it has an altered surface so I believe it. An A/S can apply to anything but is usually reserved for fraudulent alterations rather than cleaning, etc. However, coins with A/S are NORMALLY put into "Detail" slabs. While a TPGS can do virtually anything they wish with their slab, Something is not right here. That's all I will post.

 

I have reached out to NGC requesting any information they might have on this token, it will be interesting to see if they respond and what their response is. Good idea CN! Now I'm really curious @Insider ! I did confirm the NGC Registration -

 

could it be that it was returned as such prior to when they started slabbing these.

 

Yes. While "details" have been done of years, the Op indicates this is something HE SAW - not that he sent in. So that must be the case. I'm no longer confused.

 

NGC no longer encapsulates Altered Surface coins. My understanding is that they no longer want their brand attached to such heavily “worked” coins.”
PCGS will encapsulate it, however.

 

Same thing happened to me when I submitted a 1795 dollar. Had VF details, but had corrosion removed, pitting, whizzed, and had been re-toned. NGC basically said, sorry but…. No. I also suspect that altered surface coins are kept out of holders because they could continue to change or degrade inside the holder. For example, copper coins, which have been whizzed and retoned could change color over time. Or coins with something applied to the surface could degrade because the surfaces aren’t stabilized.

 

And the circle goes round and round...

Originally, the argument for any genuine coin sent back in a "Body Bag" while keeping the fee $$$ was the top two major TPGS's did not want their "Brand" attached to sub-par coins. Meanwhile, other services would slab virtually anything including paper milk bottle caps, coins with holes, tokens, etc. The "Detail" grading, for example PCI Red Labels, was the old "Technical System" devised long before - grade the coin, describe the problem. Eventually, the top two TPGS's were forced to eliminate the use of "body bags" and start technically grading problem coins that were formerly frowned upon. You can be sure that public opinion and $$$ was a determining factor in that decision.

Now, if true, NGC is going to save $$$ for product they no longer need to use for ALL SUBMISSIONS. This is probably a decision by the new owners. If true, sometimes folks who don't know anything about a product screw it up. Let's hope this decision does not backfire on a great TPGS.

 

This has been their policy for a couple years now, though. So it wasn’t the new owners.

 

I don't believe it so I'll make a call tomorrow and I thank you now for pointing this out.

 

I sent a Morgan to NGC in 2018 and it came back in the same type of flip/body bag with the "altered surfaces" notation. So the policy definitely dates back multiple years. Still you should call and confirm for yourself.

 

Time sure flies when we’re having fun.

 

I bought it, you guys actually allayed some of my larger concerns and I negotiated a sub-500 price, so it's mine. I might actually send it to ICG for a Details slab and Conservation if appropriate to preserve it if possible. So maybe Insider will actually take a look in person. In any case, I've always wanted one, and I think my son will like it and the price was right (as has been overtime lately). The "Coat of Arms" people look like aliens, which is delightful.

 

@ddddd have we seen photos of it>
@Jack D. Young @KBBPLL

 

This one goes back to 2016 and the middle of my counterfeit "awakening": I was never clear if it had actually been slabbed or returned BB'd but I did later prove it the probable repaired source coin for several struck counterfeits:


The genuine damaged source coin:

 

I didn't realize they note the Label type on the cert for a bodybagged example!

 

This might have something to do with the fact that NGC and PCGS have been burned with counterfeit coins that had altered surfaces. If you can scrap off some or all of the features that make it easier to note that a piece is a counterfeit, it's something that dishonest people are going to do.

As for the OP coin, it appears that it probably had some corrosion on the obverse that was removed. The term some people is "tooling." The coin also might have a planchet crack at 11:30 on the obverse and 6:00 on the reverse.

Here is a no problem example of this piece.

 

@C-B-D Is correct. I was TOTALLY uninformed . NGC does not slab coins determined to be fraudulently altered. As I understand it, that means coins that are altered in some way to deceive the buyer. Cleaning, etc. are still OK to slab. The other major TPGS's put them in "detail" slabs.

I personally like this policy. In the 70's, any type of alteration was treated the same as a counterfeit - no photo certificate.