Doubtful Denomination

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by David Atherton, Apr 16, 2022.

  1. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    For the price of a nice meal out on the town, I was able to acquire a decent Domitian Caesar bronze with an intriguing mystery.

    T351a.jpg
    Domitian as Caesar [Titus]
    Æ Dupondius/As, 12.26g
    Rome mint, 80-81 AD
    Obv: CAES DIVI VESP F DOMITIAN COS VII; Head of Domitian, laureate, bearded, r.
    Rev: S C in field; Spes stg. l., with flower
    RIC 351 (R). BMC -. BNC 258.
    Acquired from eBay, April 2022.

    The dupondii struck for Domitian Caesar under Vespasian and Titus have portraits that lack the radiate crown normally associated with that denomination. At times it can be a bit confusing determining if a coin is a dupondius or an As. This coin's heavier weight and yellowish hue suggests it is a dupondius. Struck under Titus in 80 or 81 after Vespasian's deification, the reverse features the standard Flavian Spes type common to the bronze coinage. Scarce enough to be missing from the BM.

    Thank you for looking!
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2022
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  3. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    That is a nice addition to your collection, @David Atherton! It's well-centered and has nice surfaces. It worked hard in the Roman economy, facilitating transactions for decades! I like the left-facing bust, too.

    The coin reminds me of this one in my own collection. Women didn't wear the radiate or laurel crowns but, rather, a string or two of pearls or the stephane, neither of which indicated the denomination of the coins on which they appear. The middle bronzes can be difficult to further narrow down as to whether they are an as or dupondius when patinated. Like yours, on this coin, there are parts of the patina that are worn away on the high points, revealing the color of the metal. In this case, the coppery red indicative of the as denomination. As you note, weight sometimes helps, and this one is < 10 g, consistent with the as denomination.

    I don't know whether the "usual" type for your coin is a left-facing bust. In the Antonine period, a left-facing bust is almost always a scarce variety of a type typically seen with a right-facing bust. This one, for example, is a variant of a coin found more frequently with a right-facing bust. Faustina wears a strand of pearls.

    [​IMG]
    Faustina II, AD 147-175/6.
    Roman Æ as, 9.85 g, 26.0 mm, 6 h.
    Rome, AD 147-149.
    Obv: FAVSTINAE AVG PII AVG FIL, Bust of Faustina II, draped, with band of pearls, left.
    Rev: VENVS S C, Venus standing right, drawing veil from shoulder with right hand and holding up apple in left hand.
    Refs: RIC 1410b (l.); BMCRE 2165; Cohen --; Strack 1304; RCV --.
     
  4. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    David, are there any plausible theories as to why the radiate crown was omitted on these dupondii?
     
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  5. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    To compound the confusion, Hadrian started out with radiate dupondii and then dropped the radiate crown, replacing it with a laurel wreath, just like the as. Here is the relevant information:

    "Another denominational alteration is the disappearance of the radiate effigy as indicator of the dupondius. It would be absent for the subsequent part of Hadrian's reign until the revival of the radiate dupondius under Antoninus Pius...Although slightly heavier than the as, both it and the dupondius were typically of similar module, hence the need from this part of the RIC catalogue onwards to have a dupondius or as (dp/as) category. Most specimens do not retain bare metal surfaces that show whether they are made of orichalcum or copper. Metal would have been the visual distinguishing factor in antiquity before Nero's regular use of the radiate bust on dupondii (from AD 64). The first signs of the disappearance of the radiate dupondius occur during the later stages of the HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P obverses."
    (Roman Imperial Coinage II.3: From AD 117 to AD 138 – Hadrian by Richard Abdy, Peter Mittag), page 20.

    Here is one of mine that I am pretty confident is a laureate dupondius - the weight and the visible yellow color make me think so:

    Hadrian - Dupondius FIDES PVBLICA Jan 2021a (0).jpg
    Hadrian Æ Dupondius
    (c. 134-138 A.D.)
    Rome Mint

    [HADRI]ANVS [AVG COS III P P], laureate bust right / FID[ES PVBLI]CA S C, Fides standing right, holding two corn-ears downwards, in right hand and basket of fruit in left.
    RIC II, 3 2269; BMC 1591
    (old RIC 890d (dupondius))
    (12.15 grams / 23 x 20 mm)
    eBay Jan. 2021
    Attribution Note:
    "Laureate bust" dupondius; Hadrian struck these c. 128-138 A.D.).
    This type with "PVBLICA" is rare; OCRE has one, which is in the Münzkabinett, Kunst Historisches Museum Wien; British Museum has one as well.
    http://www.ikmk.at/object?id=ID61754
    http://numismatics.org/ocre/ id/ric.2.hdn.809d_as


    This one, on the other hand, is hard to determine; the weight is sort of normal for either denomination and too much patina/crud obscure the color of the original metal. So like the imperial women as described by @Roman Collector above, I call it as/dupondius:

    Hadrian As ANNONA Dec 18 (0).jpg
    Hadrian Æ As / Dupondius
    (133-135 A.D.)
    Rome Mint

    HADRI[AN]VS [AVG CO]S III P P, bare head right / ANNONA [AVG] S C, Annona standing left, holding corn ears & rudder set on prow; modius at feet left
    RIC II.3 2144 (as/dupondius)
    (old RIC 796a).
    (11.58 grams / 24 mm)
    eBay Dec. 2018
     
  6. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    Though dupondii after the reform of Nero generally are seen with an obverse portrait wearing a radiate crown it is not always the case. It is likely that Nero was celebrating his participation in the Actian game thus wearing a radiate crown associated with victorious participants in those games. In fact some of Nero's asses have a portrait of him wearing a radiate crown. Afterwards the radiate crown is associated with the dupondius, however even as late as the Emperor Hadrian some dupondi feature a portrait of the Emperor laureate.
    Hadrian Ae Dupondius 135 AD Obv. Head right laureate Rv. aequitas standing left. RIC 795d RIC II/3 2373 11.75 grms 26 mm Photo by W. Hansen
    hadriandup5.jpg As most aes coins are recovered covered with a patina it is ofter very difficult to tell the two denominations apart. With my coin I could see a very small area on the edge that looked "brassy". This is why I consider this coin to be a dupondius.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2022
  7. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    I read somewhere about the possibility that senior emperor were radiate while junior emperor or caesar were not…?
     
  8. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    @Ocatarinetabellatchitchix is partially correct.

    Under Vespasian this certainly was the case. Titus was basically a co-emperor in all but name with Vespasian while Domitian as the junior prince was second in line to the purple. Under Titus (when the OP coin was struck), the assumption would be Domitian was Titus's heir apparent. Why then are his dupondii not radiate under Titus? Perhaps it's further evidence that all was not well between the two brothers with Titus reluctantly viewing Domitian as his heir?
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2022
  9. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    Interesting explanation. "Si non e vero, e bene trovato" !

    Q
     
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  10. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Here's the companion righty version:

    domitian RIC 350.jpg
    I see enough telltale hints of orichalcum that I think it's a dupondius, though the weight is 11.55g. I had it labeled as an As for decades!

    I don't think these issues under Titus with the shortened "DOMITIAN" legend are all that common, but your lefty must be really rare! Congrats!
     
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  11. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Great find David. Here's one from the same series but certainly an As.

    Domitian_RIC_315.jpg

    CAES DIVI AVG VESP F DOMITIAN COS VII
    Laureate head left

    SC
    Minerva standing left with thunderbold and spear, shield at her side

    Rome 80-81 AD

    9.63g

    RIC 315 Titus (R2)
     
  12. Barry Murphy

    Barry Murphy Well-Known Member

    David,

    your coin is certainly a Dupondius. The yellowish color of the metal indicates it’s struck in orichalcum, not copper which would be more reddish. The radiate crown was not as important in ancient times for identifying denominations because the as and Dupondius would have been completely different colors when they were issued and easily identifiable. The bronze coins we see today look nothing like they did in ancient times. We might be appalled at the sight of a Domitian as that looked like a 2022 Lincoln penny. It’s only with centuries of toning and encrustations that we have difficulties in determining denominations.


    Barry Murphy
     
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  13. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Thanks Barry for your valued insights!
     
  14. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Do you happen to know when Hadrian stopped issuing radiate dupondii? My only Hadrian radiate dupondius was issued in AD 119/120 according to the new RIC (i.e., around the 4th year of his reign):

    Hadrian, AE Dupondius, AD 119 - c. mid-120 [see RIC II.3 pp. 89-97], Rome Mint. Obv. Radiate head right with part of upper shoulder line viewed from behind, IMP CAESAR TRAIANVS HADRIANVS AVG PM TRP COS III / Rev. Virtus standing right, right breast bare, left foot on helmet, holding spear with right hand and parazonium with left hand, VIRTUTI AVGVSTI,* S - C across fields. RIC II.3 278 [bust variety A1: nude, no drapery] & Pl. 68 (2019 ed.), old RIC II 605 (1926 ed.), Sear RCV II 3670, Cohen 1470, BMCRE 1239. 27 mm., 11.36 g.

    Hadrian dupondius, Virtus reverse with parazonium.jpg

    *See RIC II.3 Introduction at p. 49, explaining that new messages seen during the 119-121 period include “Honos and Virtus, celebrating the Emperor’s honour and courage. Honos is a relatively rare male personification. The more commonplace Virtus is female but she demonstrates the masculine nature of her message – vir = man in Latin – by holding a parazonium [large dagger in ornamental scabbard with bulbous end] in a distinctly phallic pose.”
     
  15. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    c. 128-129 A.D. is when radiate busts stopped? I base this on p. 20 of the "Chronology" section of (Roman Imperial Coinage II.3: From AD 117 to AD 138 – Hadrian by Richard Abdy, Peter Mittag), quoted above. The section I quoted is from the 128-129 A.D. section.

    I don't own this book - I'm reading the excerpts available on Google Books:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=D...I#v=onepage&q=hadrian dupondius annona&f=true
     
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  16. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Thanks so much, @Marsyas Mike. I didn't look closely enough at what you wrote to realize that RIC II.3 was your source. The book (which I recently bought) indeed states that the last radiate dupondii under Hadrian, and the first laureate dupondii, were issued in AD 128-129. The latest radiate dupondii listed are RIC II.3 974 (Salus reverse), 984 (Fortuna), and 990-992 & 994 (Hilaritas). The earliest laureate dupondii listed (classified as "Dp/As" because of the ambiguity of many surviving specimens) are RIC II.3 985-987 (all with Fortuna on the reverse), from the same two-year period.
     
  17. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I have this one cataloged as a laureate dupondius, but the jet-black patina doesn't help much with the composition.

    At 10.1g, though, maybe it's an as?
    IMG_9589.jpg
     
  18. Barry Murphy

    Barry Murphy Well-Known Member

    10 grams probably an as.

    Barry Murphy
     
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  19. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    Despite the low weight, however, I think Nero struck that VICTORIA AVGVSTI type only on dupondii.

    His asses had a different Victory type: flying left holding shield inscribed SPQR, without descriptive reverse legend.
     
  20. Barry Murphy

    Barry Murphy Well-Known Member

    We could xfr test the Nero to find out.

    barry
     
  21. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    A dupondius mistakenly struck on a copper flan for asses wouldn't be impossible, though an unusually light normal brass dupondius seems much more likely.
     
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