Tooling?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Restitutor, Apr 3, 2022.

  1. Restitutor

    Restitutor Well-Known Member

    Hi all,

    Looking at picking up this coin but wondering if there is any concern over tooling? The description doesn't say, but I'm still very novice in the world of identifying a tooled coined. Any help would be appreciated, thank you!

    Hadrian.jpeg
     
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  3. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    My amateur eye sees signs of smoothing. I am not familiar enough with the type to say if it was tooled or not. But if it doesn't mention the smoothing, and frankly even if it did, I would pass.
     
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  4. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    FWIW, this is what a lower grade example of the reverse type looks like.

    [​IMG]
    Sabina, AD 117-137.
    Roman provincial Æ 24.5 mm, 8.12 g, 6 h.
    Bithynia, Koinon of Bithynia.
    Obv: CΑΒЄΙΝΑ ϹЄΒΑϹΤΗ, draped bust of Sabina, right, with hair coiled and piled on top of head above double stephane.
    Rev: ΚΟΙ-ΝΟΝ BЄIΘΥΝΙΑϹ, octastyle temple on podium; pellet in pediment; Nikes erecting trophies (?) on raking cornices.
    Refs: RPC III, 1016A; SNG von Aulock 291; cf. BMC 13.107,30.
     
  5. chaparralian

    chaparralian Active Member

    I'd definitely pass. I'd rather have a lower grade version like the one Roman Collector posted than one that has been severely tooled and smoothed. You can see the gouges between the pillars on the reverse. Someone really dug into this one.
     
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  6. Restitutor

    Restitutor Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the insight everyone! Will def be passing
     
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  7. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    Looks like it has been cleaned with a brush, which leaves hairlines on the surface. Quite faint ones, in this incidence. There are some more visible lines between the two columns to the left. Those are likely from a pick.
    I would not consider it as tooling, however. Tooling is altering the original surfaces. Cleaning is removing dirt from them, and 99% of all ancient coins have been cleaned at some point.
     
  8. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    I think it looks fine. You can see very minor cleaning marks, but you can see that on most large bronzes blown up with that resolution. It doesn't look tooled or especially smoothed to me (at least not on the reverse).
     
  9. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Not sure - could go either way. No completely obvious signs of tooling
     
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  10. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    I agree strongly with @svessien and @Curtis here. Cleaning scratches are very different from tooling. It's a nice coin.
     
  11. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    I'm assuming this is a Koinon of Bithynia under Hadrian. Perhaps RPC from about 991 to 1021 (page 2 & page 3 of these search results). Your best bet to reassure yourself is to find other examples from the exact same dies and compare and see if there are any "artistic errors" that give away the tooling.
     
  12. akeady

    akeady Well-Known Member

    For what it's worth, it looks OK to me. The scratches are minor enough.

    ATB,
    Aidan.
     
  13. chaparralian

    chaparralian Active Member

    So curious... what I'm seeing as gouges in between the columns is...? My understanding of one form of tooling is that an effort has been made to highlight the features by removing material around or in between features. Yes? Doesn't this coin show that, or are those gouges part of the original die?
     
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  14. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Well-Known Member

    I agree with this observation.

    All of the areas I've circled in the image below would make me feel uncomfortable with this coin. Too many of the lines/edges seem too sharp and unworn compared to the wear on the rest of the coin's high points, and the legend on the right (the rectangular selection) as well as the areas between the columns seem to have been specifically gouged out to make these features and devices more well-defined.

    Hadrian selections.jpg
     
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  15. Restitutor

    Restitutor Well-Known Member


    Yep that’s correct! The columns just seem so much more pronounced on this one than any other I’ve seen which is what gave me pause. This whole thread has given me a whirlwind of emotions now lol.
     
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  16. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    I think this is a question where you draw the line between tooling and smoothing. The coin has been smoothed, probably by wet cleaning and rubbing on the patina. Now, was the patina part of the original die? No. Are the scratches in the patina, or do they go into the metal? We don’t know. But to me, tooling involves going into the metal, while smoothing and cleaning goes into the patina to various degrees.
    I wouldn’t mind having the coin in my collection. It’s a really nice type. But I would be aware that the coin is smoothed, and that that should affect the price negatively. It’s a buyer beware thing.
     
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  17. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    I see what you're saying here, and you could be right. On the other hand, I think we see the sort of depression around "NON" happen naturally too, on bronze, whether from corrosion or strike or some combination of the two. Looking through the RPC specimens, it seems quite common on this type, e.g.:
    high.jpg

    high2.jpg
    high3.jpg
    This last example clearly shows smoothing like the OP. I think the natural depression + smoothing explains its appearance.

    The overall pattern of wear on the coin (very little!) seems perfectly OK to me. Look at the crisp strike on the bottom legend, for example. The strike is a little less perfect as you move up the coin.

    I'm less sure what to make of the apparent gouges inside the extreme left and right columns. I don't think the effect is to enhance detail, especially on the left one - the gouge is in open space not even abutting the column. Still, could be tooling. There could also be a little tooling at the top of the first "N" in "NON" and at the bottom right of the temple. We'd have to see a die match to be sure. I couldn't find a die match, but I wasn't looking that carefully.

    I still think it's a nice coin by the standards of Roman Provincials. I feel I should also point out that most of our standards for our own collections are very much lower than those of @IdesOfMarch01, whose collection is truly superb! :D
     
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  18. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    I'll borrow @IdesOfMarch01 image and point out the areas in between the pillars where the "cleaner" got greedy and took to out, not just patina, but appears to have dug in the metal, observe a few spots via the red arrows.
    As well, I can see what others are saying about the lines in the fields looking like simple over cleaning.
    But compared to the jagged letters and rocky dots I would be pretty pressed not to call that smoothed.
    Screenshot_20220403-164539_Chrome~2.jpg
    Of course I'm standing on the shoulders of giants and have had minimal, compared to some, exposure to smoothing and tooling, thankfully.
    But I must confess, after reading some of my favorite posters remarks, I do wonder if I've overshot.
    @Restitutor could we please see the obverse of the coin?
     
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  19. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    I don't think anyone's disputing that it's smoothed. :)

    Ooh, yes, I second that request!
     
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  20. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    @Ryro , I agree the coin is smoothed. It doesn’t cross my «tooled» line, though. The gouges between the columns may have been made with a toothpick. If they are made with something harder than that, and it has pierced the metal, then I agree it is tooled.

    For the record: I personally think that cleaning of bronze coins should be performed only with soft brushes, inbetween soaking in distilled water. It takes time, but provides the best result in the end.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2022
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  21. Restitutor

    Restitutor Well-Known Member

    Here’s the full listing image. Ended up hammering for €160 which is way less than I expected so perhaps others had the same concern. The listing itself made no mention of smoothing or tooling :bored:

    76DFB90E-509D-4A43-88B2-38BFDA850C32.jpeg

    Ended up getting this Justinian I solidus instead… the first gold coin of my collection!

    E07B1ACD-E79C-4814-A293-A84E64C14544.jpeg
     
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