A countermark collectors kind of thread: Stamps helping stamps

Zeus above on high, do I LOVE a Cloooool Hand Luke countermark. But countermarks are much harder to identify, and tell us much less, than a regular coin right out of the mint might.


And more often than not, after exhausting all things I can think of, I feel like Luke after getting KO'd, by for this role, Oscar winning for best supporting actor, George Kennedy:


But it doesn't have to be like that...
Herein please post the countermarks that you can't identify, don't know where they came from or plain just don't know where to begin, and we all help each other with what we know
I'll start.
This is a Macedonian shield coin from Philip V. I've not found any countermark like it thus far, but assume it's Roman, as what other dominate force was out there to "repurpose" coin in Macedon during the time of the Roman take over?

Philip V 221-179 BC.
Obv: right facing Perseus w\cm
Bronze Æ
12 mm, 2,10 g
fine



Or how about this silly one with *Tyche maybe, and what would her presence on this coin mean??

Annia Faustina
Phrygia. Hierapolis. Annia Faustina AD 221.
Bronze Æ
24 mm, 4,71 g
fine



And lastly a, what in the world? A strange pie shape and I don't know what below. And on the reverse we are looking at, what appears to be an upper torso and the a head?
Don't ask me how the auction house nailed down the original coin to being 98-117 CE, cause in hand I cannot make heads nor tails of any of it.

Beautiful Countermark coin, (98-117 AD). AE
Reference:
Condition: Very Fine
Weight: 3 gr
Diameter:20,2 mm





Again, please post the countermarks that you can't identify, don't know where they came from or plain just don't know where to begin... and help a brother out while posting your strange marks that counter!

 

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There are quite a few c/m's found on asses of Claudius but what is the meaning of AD?

 

@dougsmit , yours is Werz 39 (i.e., "Gegenstempel 39" on pages 100-101 of Ulrich Werz, 2009, Part II: Katalog). I don't read German well, but he describes this type as being used for AE As of Claudius (including one imitation, I believe, and one official).

He discusses whether it might relate to Legio I Adiutrix or Legio II Adiutrix. I can't tell what he thinks, though, because it's German, but doesn't sound positive.

He cites "Giard, BN II 1988, 13" and elsewhere also cites Giard, 14. They are illustrated on Giard's plate A, 4 & 5. The reference is to:

J.-B. Giard, Catalogue des monnaies de l’empire romain II. De Tibère à Néro (PARIS 1988) [Note: Cataloging coins of Bibliotheque Nationale de France]​

I don't think your countermark is included in Howgego.

Here are links for Werz's full study (this is separate from his 2004 book cataloging the Konrad Bech catalog collection):

Project website:
http://publikationen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/frontdoor/index/index/docId/6876 ​

There are multiple links, I tend to use part II: Katalog:
[Note: Direct link to 886 page .pdf document]:
2Werz_Counterstamp_Part_II.pdf (6794 KB)​

 

This is not my coin but I noticed this Claudius this weekend in an auction. Not a countermark I have seen before.



Does somebody have an idea what portrait is that and the meaning?

 

Yes, the author says that it is possible that AD stands for Adiutrix. There is apparently an example of a countermark APOL which is interpreted to stand for Legio XV Apollinaris. However, since the Legio I and II Adiutrix were only created in the Flavian era at a time when the use of countermarks ended on the Rhine, it is more likely that AD represents a personal name, according to the author.

 

Cool writeup and coins @Ryro

I do not have many countermarks, and I do not collect, study, nor specialize in them. However, they are fun to have:


Augustus As four countermarks 25-23 mm 9.8g TICA AVG probably for Tiberius Augustus CE14-37 Dolphin


This one is purported to be counterstamped with a Bow-case... I just think she has a HUGE EAR!


Cilicia - Tarsos turret counterstamped Bow Pompey Pirates AE 19 164 BCE Tyche-Zeus seated

 

I found this less attractive look alike in an old CNG, but they just say, right facing head in oval incuse.

Sounds like a mystery team!

Now hear me out, why can't it be both. Her bow shooting ears hide behind the turrets. A perfect killing machine/personification!

Ps, after having no luck with finding any other Annia Faustinas with a Tyche cm, I started looking for any with countermark and there are a few with these fellas.

c/m: male figure standing left with sceptre or spear and uncertain object.
Mine:

I think that's it! I was just too stuck thinking the guys head and spear were turrets!
Now, will I ever be able to identify the little figure and what they are carrying and what it signifies?!?! Doubtful. But I'm happy to have figured out what the cm is of.

 

Some great countermarks in this thread. They are indeed tough to identify sometimes; here are a few of my unknowns:

This one seems doable, but I have never had any luck figuring it out:


Unknown Æ 22
Æ host, head (Tiberius? Seleucid King?) right / Figure (Zeus? Hermes?) standing left holding sceptre.
Unidentified.
Countermark: Obverse, NE in 10 x 6 mm oval.
(9.85 grams / 22 mm)
eBay Dec. 2019

Here's one from Pergamum with what looks like a club countermark. Owl countermarks are often encountered on these, but I've never been able to find a club:



Here are a couple of unknowns - the hosts are so worn I've never had any luck. An eagle and a laureate head, I think.

 

My Aspendos stater has a nice but mysterious countermark

 

Not sure what this is:

 

Hi @Ryro,

The Countermark reminds me of the mint mark used by Ainos that can be seen on Ptolemaic coins from there. See https://www.vcoins.com/de/stores/lo...tradrachm_ainos_very_rare/175538/Default.aspx

It represents a(n) Herm.

Maybe?

- Broucheion

 

Very interesting!
It sure resembles the pie shaped mark on my bronze:



Most likely an early version of trivial pursuit

Thanks so much! I think you've nailed it
Herm had crossed my mind but the pedestal(?) at the top that the head is on and lack of genitals made my second guess

 

..i think a countermark's neat on a coin...one of my Sev. Al's of Cappadocia has one

 

I would say your countermark NE is Howgego 552 (p. 213 & pl. 21) [link to excerpt and illustration]. He describes it as a countermark in the name of Nero.

There are also NE countermarks described in Werz (2009), potentially also Nero's, but I don't know if they are the same as yours. (Doesn't seem like he cites Howgego 552.) Werz 134 (pp. 492-493, that's just a small snippet below) is illustrated as having a rectangular incuse, though, instead of oval/circular? That's just the text, though, I didn't check his plates. (I also didn't check the rest of the volume [886 pages in part II alone!], so there may be other NE types described.)

In general, I usually consider Werz a good starting point for countermarks on Roman Imperial types that aren't in Howgego (but also some Roman Provincials on some occasions).

For the links to Werz's documents (based on his dissertation, and a larger research project at Goethe University, Frankfurt), see my comment above on Doug's Claudius As with AD countermark: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-...ad-stamps-helping-stamps.394780/#post-8274940

Here's the snippet from 492, but it goes on a bit long. In German, unfortunately:

 

By the way, here's a fun countermark I haven't posted anywhere else yet. When adding to my countermark collection I usually go for Roman Imperial or Roman Provincial since there is more research and more of them have been cataloged/published, but sometimes I love how artistic (and big!) Greek countermarks can be.

I appreciate that it was skillfully applied so as to preserve the Herakles and give two obverse images!

First, horizontal, emphasizing dolphin countermark (Lanz 111, 587):


Second, vertical (12h), emphasizing the host coin / Herakles (CNG EA 499 Lot 169):


BCD Euboia 587 (this coin)
EUBOIA, Karystos. 3rd-2nd centuries BC. Æ (18mm, 3.28 g, 11h).
Obv: Herakles right; c/m: dolphin in incuse circle
Rev: KA (MAKT monogram?), Head of bull; monogram to right.
Ref: BCD Euboia 587 (this coin); Add. Refs. for Host Coin: HGC 4, 1561; McClean 5662; BMC 19 (pl. XIX, 3); SNG Cop 421; McClean 5660 (pl. 203, 21); BCD Euboia 586; and Lanz 114 (BCD Eub Supp), 165.
Prov: CNG e-Auction 499 (1 September 2021), Lot 169; BCD Collection; Lanz 111 (25 November 2002), lot 587

 

Thank you so much for this information, Curtis. I downloaded Werz a while back, but my lack of German is somewhat hampering me (I have picked up "Gegenstempel" but not much else). You have inspired me to do some more digging.

The "NE" is described, ligate, in RPC, but unfortunately without a photo: https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/countermark/746

In my searches, I'd find an occasional NE countermark, but never an entirely convincing match to mine. This one is on an Achaean League triobol, possibly for Nerva! It is so weird I have my doubts (and it's ligate).
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=295857

Thanks again!

 

Oh, that reminded me! I checked and there's an RPC page for Howgego 552 here:
https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/countermark/681

RPC calls Howgego "GIC" and assigns its own numbers. So Howgego GIC 552 = RPC Countermark Type 681. (I don't know if that's the better match, but it does have a circular/oval incuse like yours; mainly depends if your "handwriting" matches and the "host coin"/undertype for yours fits.)

(The images of Howgego 552 here again for reference.)

I was going to post RPC's general countermark link... but -- what the heck -- I'm going to make a separate comment and just cut-and-paste my online countermark references for anyone's reference who wants them.

 

Here are some of my saved countermark references, cut and pasted from "master file" of notes. I may have some other annotated references and bibliographies on countermarks; if I find them, I'll add them too.

Sorry -- didn't alphabetize!

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ONLINE REFERENCES:

Numiswiki = https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=countermark

RPC Countermarks: From RPC Online: https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/countermark

First 19.5 pages of 26 (approximately 968 entries out of perhaps 1272 [RPC CM 1272 = GIC 854, but ~305 in between marked as “GIC –”]) are cross-referenced to Howgego, including subtypes, GIC 1 through GIC 850, 850i, and 850ii (= RPC CM 966, 967, 968)​

Richard Baker = http://romancoins.info/countermark-Richard-Baker.html . “The Countermarks Found on Ancient Roman Coins: A Brief Introduction.”

Andreas Pangerl, Museum of Countermaks on Roman Coins = http://romancoins.info/Countermarks.html

(As of 27 Jun 2021, the combined Pangerl – Baker Coll’s website reported > 11.5M page views.)
​

Martini-Pangerl = Rudolfo Martini (2003) The Pangerl Collection - Catalog and Commentary on the Countermarked Roman Imperial Coins. (Nomismata 6.) Edizioni Ennerre.

[Augustus to Vespasian.] Important private collection of countermarks. with >18 Plates (B&W). Very useful, types commonly found on collectable CM coins, most host coins are RIC, also imitations, and some RPC.
On Martini’s Academia page: https://www.academia.edu/3821963/​

Howard D Gibbs: “The Howard D. Gibbs collection of cut and counterstamped, necessity and siege coins of the Americas ...”
Hans M.F. Schulman, Catalog of Public Auction (New York, 18 Mar 1966).

Catalog on Archive:
https://archive.org/details/howarddgibbscoll00hans​

See also AK Collection: Triton XVI AK, 1004 = 39 RIC Countermarked AE.

Werz-Bech Countermarks (Gegenstempel) = Werz U. 2004. Gegenstempel auf Reichsund Provinzialpragungen der romischen Kaiserzeit. Katalog der Sammlung Dr. Konrad Bech, Mainz. Numismatische Gesellschaft Speyer, Band 45. Softcover, 183pp., 12 plates, German text.

[Preview (partial, no plates) on academia] Interesting cataloging, each entry diagramming the placement, shape, and orientation of the countermark.​

Ulrich Werz (2009) DOWNLOADS Much larger study & database available here, full-text of Werz’ dissertation on countermarks (very valuable): http://publikationen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/frontdoor/index/index/docId/6876

Brunk = Brunk. 1980 “A Hoard from Syria Countermarked by the Roman Legions.’ American Numismatic Society, Museum Notes (ANS MN) 25, pp. 63-76. JSTOR Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/43573598

[Legionary Countermark Hoard, Syria]​

Buttery Countermarks = Buttrey, Jr., Theodore V. 1970. “Observations of the Behavior of Tiberian Counterstamps.” ANS MN 16: pp. 57-68. https://jstor.org/stable/43574030

Check also: Kraay, CM. 1956. “Gegenstempel auf Überprägten Römischen Münzen.” Schweizer Münzblatter [SMB] (6): 4-7. [Clain-Stefanelli 5004] [in German, with a few illustrations, not too vital.]

Tesorillo – Countermarks on Iberian Coinage

Francois de Callatay. 1997. “Les monnayages ciliciens du premier quart du IVe s. av. J.-C.” in Varia Anatolica, XII, O. CASABONNE (ed.), Mécanismes et innovations monétaires dans l'Anatolie achéménide. Numismatique et Histoire. Actes de la Table Ronde Internationale d'Istanbul, 22-23 mai 1997, Paris, 1997, p. 93-127, pl. IX-XV. [Countermarks / banker’s marks in Cilician coinage, esp. AR Staters.]

See also collection sales: Patrick Tan (CNG), Jay Galst (CNG).

See also examples: show your marks | Coin Talk (CT 295986, 6 May 2017 – 5 Mar 2018, 5 Pages)
and: Post Your C/S C/M Ancients | Coin Talk (CT 315294, 24 April – 29 Oct 2018, 3 Pages) – many duplicates across those two; many examples of types I have (e.g., dolphin, radiate head helios cilicia tarsos, TICA CAE etc. types); Doug posts a bunch but not the one I bought.

PRINT-ONLY REFERENCES (in @Curtis library, ask for reference checks/limited page-scans):

Bibliography c. 1946-1977: E.E. Clain-Stefanelli (1985) Page 431: Nos. 4999 – 5008.

All seemingly re: RIC and RPC. Some look worth looking up; I’ve only checked the two by Kraay so far (5003, 5004). Interesting how little had been written to that point (and still has). Howgego’s (1985) Greek Imperial Countermarks just missed the deadline (surely it deserved a “forthcoming” entry!).​

Howgego GIC = Howgego = Howgego, Christopher. 2005 [1985]. Greek Imperial Countermarks. London: Spink [Royal Numismatic Society].

The bible for RPC Countermarks. As he notes in the intro, such a project has never been attempted for the even more vast and less organized countermarks of the pre-Roman Greek worlds of Europe, the Mediterranean, and Asia.
​

Kraay, Colin M. 1979 [1956]. “The Behavior of Early Imperial Countermarks.” Pp. 113-136 in Essays in Roman Coinage Presented to Harold Mattingly, ed. by RAG Carson & CHV Sutherland. London: Scientia Verlag Aalen [Oxford]. [Clain-Stefanelli 5003, for chapter.]
---

EDIT: One more, big one!

BMCRE vol I, Augustus to Vitellius. Mattingly, H. & R.A.G. Carson. Coins of the Roman Empire in the British Museum. (London, 1923 – 1963). Vol. 1: Augustus to Vitellius. (London, 1923).

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.69977

Augustus – Claudius:
Note the countermarks section beginning on p.XXVIII (28). The As is the most frequently countermarked of the first century (particularly in frontier regions and near war zones), and probably mostly owing to traveling soldiers. The As is the coinage of daily use and small purchase, so the countermarking of legal tender extending the purchasing power of the traveling soldier across the empire, where Asses of another region might not be legal tender.​

Alphabetical list of known countermarks begins XXXII (p.32) through XLIII (p 43). P.32 through page XXXVIII (38) for Latin (single & multiple). Page XXXIV (34): NCARP: “N(ero) C(aesar) A(ugustus) PR(obavit).” Only a short list of Greek on XXXVIIIp38, then on to the “Symbols.”​

 

Wow. Finally - a real "circular" match to mine. Thank you so much, Curtis. Time to upgrade that attribution.

 

Not sure what countermark is on this one.


Julia Iotape, Queen of Commagene AD 38 - 72
AE diassarion, 23.4 mm, 13.64 g, 12 h
Syria, Commagene, Samosata mint
Obv: ΒΑΣΙΛΙΣΣΑ ΙΩΤΑΠΗ ΦΙΛΑ∆ΕΛΦΟΣ, diademed and draped bust of Iotape, right; countermark: anchor?
Rev: ΚΟΜΜΑΓ−ΗИΩИ, scorpion and inscription all within laurel wreath
Refs: Lindgren-Kovacs 1887; RPC I 3858; BMC Galatia p. 109, 4; Nercessian AC --; SNG Cop VII 5; similar to Sear GIC 5514 (which has lunate sigmas in the inscription).