The burden though would be on the one claiming it was stolen to prove they had not only legal ownership but that it was stolen from them. You cant just walk around claiming things were stolen from you and forcing the onwers/holders of the item to prove they legally own it. Realistically once the statue expires it becomes a civil court matter where the holder doesnt have to do anything and the entire burden is on the one claiming its stolen from them
Yes, I agree, although there is one technicality I'd rather not air out in public. Some people don't mind blurring the lines between right and wrong and, while I don't know who they are, I know they're out there and I don't want to give them any ideas.
I agree. I also try not to make comments or reveal anything that would give criminals ideas on how to make it easier on themselves.
Sure . . . I had many very identifiable coins stolen over a decade ago, and would love to have one or more return to me.
Not sure my two cents worth is much good here: but I am reminded of a recent "Pawn Stars" episode I saw where the owner bought an item that turned out to be stolen. He was in a fret because he would be out if it had to be returned. However, it turned out that 'the insurance' had paid off the claim-so he was in the clear. It is pretty much basic common law that one cannot keep 'property' that they do not own. I am reminded of another story I heard on the radio where this fellow had some intense dispute with the bank manager (yea, I can relate) and the confused teller handed him an amount of cash way beyond the amount in dispute. He was so mad he just grabbed it and left. He was arrested and charged with RSP. Plead guilty (which was true). Each case must be judged on its own merits.
You still don't have title. If they insurance paid the claim, they are now the lawfull owner. It's still stolen property.
Heck, with all respect for ethics and morals, integrity, etc al, but after reading all this and knowing there's very little if any chance this item would ever get back to the owner who allegedly "reported it stolen"...whatever that means for any official capacity/authority, etc...or that I could ever be assured of once I hand it off to someone else (many hands were suggested), I'd keep it, crack it out of the existing holder/certification and start a new life for it either in a flip or in a new holder/certification for my collection.
To me the question hinges on whether PCGS still has contact with the person who reported the coin stolen and is able to facilitate its return. If PCGS is not able to confirm that in writing I would feel no obligation to return the coin. The invalid cert, however, would make me shy away from buying it unless I wanted to reholder it.
there another whole section to this civilly between parties as it relates to abandoned property. After it was stolen, how hard did the owner try to recover it? Did he try at all? Did an insurance company pay him out for it, and if so, the insurance company, would would be the "rightful owner with claim". Not the victim that got a payout. did the insurance company try to search for it and recover it? If the original owner/victim of the theft did recover the coin, would they need to reimburse an insurance company for the payout they got after the theft? Most likely right? it's the right thing to do right? Example I found "If your insurance carrier has paid your claim for a lost or stolen watch that's subsequently recovered, you must report it to the insurance company. The carrier will generally give you two options: return the money or return the watch." "If you or we recover any property for which we have made payment under this policy, you or we will notify the other of the recovery. At your option, the property will be returned to or retained by you or it will become our property. If the recovered property is returned to or retained by you, the loss payment will be adjusted based on the amount you received for the recovered property, or must be reimbursed if payout has occurred."
there another whole section to this civilly between parties as it relates to abandoned property. Abandoned or Stolen? After it was stolen, how hard did the owner try to recover it? Did he try at all? What would the owner be expected to do? The owners efforts or lack of have no bearing. The coin is still stolen. It is still his rightful property. If an insurance co. paid out on the coin it now belongs to the co. It is still stolen. Did an insurance company pay him out for it, and if so, the insurance company, would would be the "rightful owner with claim". Not the victim that got a payout. did the insurance company try to search for it and recover it? Irrelevant. If they paid out, it belongs to the co. It is still stolen. If the original owner/victim of the theft did recover the coin, would they need to reimburse an insurance company for the payout they got after the theft? Most likely right? I'd report the find to the insurance co. and work it out. Either return the coin or the settlement amount to them. it's the right thing to do right? Yes. Also you may have a problem if you try to insure it again. Example I found "If your insurance carrier has paid your claim for a lost or stolen watch that's subsequently recovered, you must report it to the insurance company. The carrier will generally give you two options: return the money or return the watch." "[/QUOTE] True story. Years back the diamond from my then wife's engagement ring went missing. Torn out from the setting. We filed a claim with our homeowners insurance co. They agreed to pay. Before the check was processed our three year old daughter found the diamond in her mothers shoe ("look mommy, lights!", with the diamond in her tiny fingers) while playing dress up. We canceled the claim and had the diamond reset. Its called integrity.
Without a doubt. Its standard contract language for insurance. Once you take the payout on the item you no longer own the item they do.
Great, now the conversation is going to turn to the laws of Abandonment. Sigh... Does anyone recall 1Law.....
Business Law 401 "my goal in this class is to scare the shit out of you, so you know to call a lawyer not listen to some idiot who only took a 1 credit hour course in B-school"
Exactly! My point all along. To hear responses from follow collectors whom I had (past tense) respected state they would get involved with someone else's stolen coin in any manner other than aid return to its rightful owner is nothing less than appalling. If return is not possible just walk away and caution others about the coins status. The continuous childish arguments and personnel attacks to some how justify their positions really shows poor character. Now lets see which fool(s) takes the bait...
When kept in their proper place (below lawyers with law degrees) Philadelphia lawyers can provide hours of endless entertainment.
True story. Years back the diamond from my then wife's engagement ring went missing. Torn out from the setting. We filed a claim with our homeowners insurance co. They agreed to pay. Before the check was processed our three year old daughter found the diamond in her mothers shoe ("look mommy, lights!", with the diamond in her tiny fingers) while playing dress up. We canceled the claim and had the diamond reset. Its called integrity.[/QUOTE] You have my support.....you are proceeding as a SEABEE should. It is probably going to take a CH54 delivering a D7 (or in this case a 9) with Jesus Pads, to get thru the muck in the Thread, but, I will wait for the Lift. If ever a clear Field of Fire was needed....
All this chatter about lost coins (or other property) is kind of moot (look it up). There are very simple steps to avoid this problem. First, keep your trap shut. Too many of us want to tell/brag about our collection opening up a problem of safety. I would bet that many stolen coins are from someone we know, including our wife and children. And, secondly, do your best to secure your collections, i.e, a safe (only you know where the safe is and what the combination is. A safe deposit box is also rather safe, but then your collections are more difficult to get the time it takes to get there and to get a bank (or other fidelity company that has "safe" deposit boxes.) There are two keys to safe deposit boxes..one that is renting the box, and another owned by the bank. What would prevent a bank employee from making a duplicate of your key? Having been a state auditor in North Carolina for over 30 years, I found that a great many people are only as honest as they can get away with. Every collector has their own unique problems in dealing in coin collecting or coin selling. Buying from ebay or any other computer company is a challenge of safety. How many stories have you heard that the coin was paid for but never delivered. Before dealing with mail order companies, check them out first. Best of luck to you all as you try to secure your collection the best you can.
If your wife is stealing from you you have bigger issues than the missing coins. Keeping quiet certainly does reduce the risk but sometimes random break ins happen. I would disagree with the idea of having a safe only you know about since if you passed away your family wouldnt have a clue about them
