CAC Opinions Please.....

I have no problem with people seeking out experts, it's a great idea. It's the people who buy based solely on the TPG and CAC's opinions rather than learn the difference for themselves.

 

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Grading

CAC is like running to your mother for help.....IMO.

I never even heard of TPG's until a few years ago when I took my possible 1888/7 IHC to a local dealer. It was the 1st time I ever wanted anothers opinion on what I had.

He offered to "Send it in".

I had to ask, "Send it into WHAT?"

Used to be you either liked/wanted/ needed the coin, no matter what.

Or you didn't, no matter what.

Now it takes a committee to let you know if you want the thing or not.

Go figure:rolling:.

 

Right-o; couldn't agree more.

Perhaps a thought - we're all on a learning curve. One of the values of TPGs is they help newer folks get to a reasonable "jumping off place" a little sooner. Overall, TPG grades are pretty solid and fairly market-reliable, so someone "on the way up" knowledge-wise can jump on in and start enjoying the hobby by buying and owning coins.

 

good point, 900. They are very helpful when learning. If you want to see what an XF coin looks like so that you can digest what you just researched about it, then a TPG coin can be an excellent comparison.

I just don't think that it translates very well for MS coins as there is a much less distinct difference between grades. More is based on luster and strike (for that coin) at that level.

 

There seems to always be a heated discussion whenever this topic is brought up. I should point out that as a general rule I don't believe that having a coin graded by a TPG is worthwhile unless the coin is value at $200 or more. Likewise, I don't believe that having a coin reviewed by the CAC is worthwhile unless the coin is valued at $500 or more. Having said that, I would like to address some of the more common complaints that I often hear about the CAC.

1. Buy the coin not the holder/sticker The problem is that very few collectors have the requisite knowledge and skill needed to accurately grade mint state coins much less the grades within a grade. I find the hubris of most collectors astonishing. The large majority of collectors preach “buy the coin not the holder” but can’t practice what they preach. For those that can, they usually are limited to the series in which they specialize. For example, I may be able to grade Jefferson Nickels with the same proficiency as the graders at the TPG’s, but there is no way I can accurately grade Washington quarters as well as professional graders. It is the grades within a grade that allow dealers to make money. Being able to separate the A-B-C coins and buy and sell at the appropriate price can be the difference between profit and loss.
2. The sticker artificially inflates the price of the coin. In fact, the sticker is extremely valuable in the fight against gradeflation. It is especially important when it comes to conditional rarities. For example, the 1921 Peace Dollar is sought after in gem state by both series collectors and type collectors. As a result, the price jumps from $630 in MS64 to $1,585 in MS65 for Numismedia Wholesale values. The 1921 Peace Dollar has proved to be a goldmine for crack-out artists over the years. Search for PQ MS64, crack it out, resubmit, and hope for the upgrade! Even if it takes several resubmissions, the payoff is worth it given the price differences between grades. Now this is all well and good unless you own a legitimate (good for the grade) MS65 1921 Peace Dollar. Every time one of the crack-out coins gets upgraded, gradeflation occurs, and the value of the MS65 is eroded. The problem is that the distribution of the A-B-C coins becomes skewed and you encounter a scenario where there is a huge price difference within the one grade. One only needs to take a cursory glance at the Heritage auction archives to see that MS65 1921 Peace Dollars sell for anywhere between $1,100 to well over $2,000. You guys can say what you want, but I simply would not buy an MS65 1921 Peace Dollar without a CAC sticker. Put another way, I certainly would pay more for an MS65 1921 Peace Dollar that had a CAC sticker.
3. And then we will need a sticker for the sticker, where does it end? With respect, this complaint is ludicrous. TPG grades are only as good as the consumer confidence that accompanies them. While the grades assigned by PCGS & NGC are widely accepted, there exists a void when it comes to quality within a specific mint state grade. The TPG’s have known this and ignored to for years. That void was filled by John Albanese, the founder of the CAC. The success of the CAC is depends upon consumer confidence just like the TPG’s with one inclusion. Because the grades assigned by the TPG’s are accepted as professional opinions, only someone with a higher level of grading expertise would be able to offer an opinion that is accepted by the general public. John Albanese is widely accepted in the numismatic community as one of the best graders in the world. In order to have a sticker for the sticker, you would need to find someone who is widely recognized as a better grader than JA. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
4. TPG’s/CAC have ruined the ability of collectors to grade coins. My problem with this is that I don’t believe that most collectors ever had this ability. I believe we always had lazy collectors. In the old days, these collectors got fleeced by unscrupulous dealers who peddled over graded and problem coins. Now, these lazy collectors are protected as long as they buy only PCGS & NGC graded coins. Futhermore, I think I have already established that most collectors who do learn how to grade can’t do it nearly as well as the professional graders. These collectors would also be wise to yield to the opinion of the professional graders until their knowledge & experience reach a level that puts them on the same playing field. We must recognize that most collectors will never reach that level of expertise.
5. The CAC still hasn’t created a sight unseen market: In the past I have posted at least two personal experiences where the CAC has enabled me to purchase a coin sight unseen using photos that appeared to have problems. IMO, CAC stickered coins combined with good photos equates to a sight unseen market for which I have full confidence. Here is one of the coins i was able to purchase because of the CAC sticker. If you would like to read more about the story, please click on the following link. Here is a photo of the coin: 1942-P Jefferson Nickel NGC PF66 CAMEO CAC.

http://boards.collectors-society.com...ue#Post2486594


Lastly, I think that anyone who is serious about learning about this topic should read the following thread (Warning:Long).

http://www.cointalk.com/t63565/

 

Although your points are well though out and very well constucted, Lehigh, since I recognize two of these complaints as if not my own, ones that I have hammered at many times, I wanted to respond.

CAC is a company, an entity, a brand, not 1 person. While I agree that John may be the best grader in the business, once he is not grading the coins, CAC will continue to sticker and this is when my argument becomes valid. There are fabulous graders out there, but when it becomes face-less and not personally done by John, I think that maybe at that time the Brand X TPG graders may be better and you then have to figure out if John graded your coin, or someone else. and if it's someone else, then you had better have them checked by a better expert. I see a death spiral, I am sorry if you don't.

You're right in that lazy collectors will always get fleeced, that's the price they pay, but the mere existence of the TPGs has removed all incentive for them to learn.

As for the professional graders, they come from the pool of knowledgeable collectors. There is a steady stream of new ones made every day. ther are not anointed, they gradually become better and more respected over time, then they become well-known. The TPGs are not having problems finding people who can grade for them.

Granted the average collector cannot grade across many series, but some people learn to with experience. Many like Clembo and I work in coin shops. I have to be able to grade across many series or I am of no use to the shop owner, so I take exception to you saying that I am arrogant if I think I can. I am not offended, however, so please don't misunderstand me I believe that we are friends, but my boss puts his money where my eyes are, and I think that speaks volumes.

 

I am of the opinion that as soon as the CAC is percieved as someone other than JA reviewing the coins, the validity of the CAC sticker will become meaningless. Good thing they have a database to see when your coin was reviewed.

I don't know where the TPG's find their graders, but it seems unlikely that they would hire someone without an extensive numismatic resume. This would mean most of the graders come from the dealer pool, not the collector pool.

In all fairness, you and Clembo can't consider yourselves simple collectors. You both work in coin shops and even if you don't accept the label of coin dealer, you both are at the very least dealer's apprentices. As such, you have a wealth of knowledge and experience that most collectors simply don't have and have no chance to attain. I stand by my original statement, and you should know that the statement does not include you because I consider you a dealer (professional), not a collector.

 

Until John leaves someday and the database suddenly becomes inaccessible. :::snicker:::

 

Sure, there may be some value to seeing a CAC sticker to reassure some folks when making an internet purchase where less than desirable photos are available.

However, how helpful will CAC really be if they continue to be successful in reviewing more and more slabbed coins. Eventually, if they stick to their current mode of operations and they review all of the slabbed coins out there, 2/3 of all slabbed coins will have CAC stickers... once 2/3 of the coins out there have stickers it doesn't seem like it would be that helpful since I know I pass on way more than 1/3 of the coins I see now.

 

You are assuming that the number of coins that fall into the A,B, & C categories are equal. I would venture to say that in most cases, the C category holds the lions share. It sounds as though that might be your experience as well if you are passing on way more than 1/3 of the coins you see.

The quality of the photos does not necessarily have to be bad. Please read this thread about my Lafayette Dollar, start with post #44.

http://www.cointalk.com/t51115-3/

Although the CAC didn't sticker the coin, the concerns I had were not the reason why and the coin was photographed by the best in the business, Mark Goodman.

 

As someone who has never looked into the structuring of CAC, am I correct in my impression of this thread: that currently John Albanese personally looks at, and authorizes the stickering of; every single coin they receive? If true, that definitely would put a big question mark on the future of his company. If he alone is the only one giving credibility to their program, who knows if he can be replaced one day with a person of equal merit. If there are others, who are they? I thought their sticker program was like NGC and PCGS, by consensus.

 

Question Restated

When I started this thread I had no idea it would dredge up a large kettle of worms. I know that collectors have very emotional opinions on all sides of the TPG's and their effect on the hobby. I was trying to get at the disparity of values between PCGS and NGC. Most collectors recognize these two TPG's as the most credible and consistant; but in terms of value in the marketplace PCGS outdoes NGC by a factor of 2+.
If you owned two coins that you judge to be exact duplicates in all respects but were slabbed by these TPG's we know the PCGS would command a higher price. Now, if they were both stickered by CAC would the respective values be close to equal? In-other-words does CAC review lead to a more level playing field?

 

Lets see: there's the "Eagle Eye PhotoSeal" and the "CAC." Both are...so...useless...

 

I don't think that even I would call them useless. I have no use for them for sure, but they do serve a purpose.

 

The coin speaks for itself, cac or no makes no difference to me.

 

Probably not. The reason being is that some of the rationale for the PCGS premium is because of their registry only allowing PCGS slabbed coins. Registry participants thus can only buy PCGS slabbed coins to list. Thus, the CAC sticker would not be a factor.

 

I wonder if PCGS will start giving cac stickers bonus points for registry sets? That would be funny.

 

A lot of good points here and I haven't seen this thread until now. I generally agree with Lehigh (Paul) about CAC -- most of the arguments against it, in the end, do not work for me (MikeNoodle has some good points though).

CAC works because Albanese is highly respected. I too find that the best coins I come across that I consider buying more often than not have the sticker (900fine's point). There must be enough people in the field that give CAC some credibility or this would not be so, at least in the series I collect. CAC coins bring more in auction -- this is hard to dispute but not so easy to draw conclusions about. Either buyers have more faith in CAC-stickered coins and it leads to a premium, or simply, the best coins within a grade now have a CAC sticker. It may be a bit of both.

In the end, for me, it is another opinion by someone that knows more about grading than me, even in the series I collect. That second opinion provides some comfort, but I never buy a coin because of the sticker. I have passed on plenty of coins with a CAC sticker and will continue to do so.

Finally, I believe Catbert is correct. A CAC stickered NGC coin will not sell at the same level as a PCGS coin because some people simply don't buy NGC coins. The PCGS Registry is one, although not the only, reason for this.