GTG Morgan Dollar.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by ldhair, Mar 9, 2022.

  1. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    This is the definition of "micro-grading" that is frowned on in a TPG room. I like it :D because it shows someone is looking very closely at a coin to see tiny characteristics that may not affect the value or grade but are interesting. The two on the left look into the surface and not bag marks.
     
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  3. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    The spots look incuse to me. I would call it frosty.
     
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  4. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    The obverse is virtually perfect. Any issues were the reverse.
     
  5. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    @ldhair "The spots look incuse to me. I would call it frosty."

    That is what I thought I was seeing also.
    I have an old PCI with the same look as this coin.
    I have seen a few others like it too.
    I have studied a few of these and that is why I was quick to say altered surfaces.
    It would seem there was a coin doctor that was smoothing the cheek on some Morgan's and getting them to slip past PCI.
    This is not an attack on PCI, this doctor was skillful with their craft.
    It may have been around the same time and the same people doing the Cali Proofs.
    The incuse spots are bag marks that were frosted over.
    If you get some fairly bright light and turn & rotate the coin you should start to see the hairlines on the cheek. The hairlines will be under the frost and it hides them well. It's kinda like one of those magic eye things where you need to look at it a bit to bring it into focus, but not to the point where it turns into numismatic pareidolia.
    Notice the overall frosty look of the coin and no cartwheel.
     
  6. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    If I need to find my PCI coin and take photos I'm sure can do that.
    Mine is a 1921 that straight graded at MS-65
     
  7. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    You think it was a doctored coin? That occurred to me, but if so, it was extremely skillfully done. The obverse sure appeared solidly clean—my only issue was the marks under the wing.
     
  8. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    @Morgandude11 "You think it was a doctored coin?"

    Yes, it has the exact same look as others I have studied.

    I know it's a bold clam and I fear I am going to have to find & photo my coin to back it up. LOL :D
     
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  9. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    I'm trying to be lazy and hope that @ldhair can see what I am saying and confirm so I don't have to take a bunch of photos of my coin.

    If you look close there should be other small contact marks that are frosted that don't show in the photos.
     
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  10. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    I am wondering what it looks like under the loupe? If you’re right, and I recognize that possibility now, it is one heck of a doctoring job. Artificial frosting—wow!!!
     
    ifthevamzarockin likes this.
  11. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    Incuse on the coin would be raised on the die.
    To be frosted down in the incuse area it would have had to be raised on the die and then frosted when the die was prepped.

    Incuse on the coin is almost always PMD or a strike-thru.
    Any PMD (bagmarks) or a strike-thru would be shiny in the incuse area not frosted.
     
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  12. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    @Morgandude11 "it was extremely skillfully done."

    Yes, that is why the OP was able to pass it around at the Fun show and no one picked up on it.
    I have passed mine around at a few shows and only a few dealers said something looked "off" with the finish but couldn't nail it down.
     
  13. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Photo'ing a coin is much different than an inhand look, It's ok even in technical grading or ANA standards that a coin can have luster breaks and still be graded Gem. All these coins were bagged at one time or another. we used to be taught around here to look for the wisps of graze that can only happen when a coin has been in circulation. IE a pocket, or finger contact, It was all about the quality of luster. A couple distracting bag marks and it kept it from MS67. Depending on the severity.

    In seven years I have seen the market grade questionable 64's,66 and 67 those marks are immaterial to the high point contact the grader may have seen.
     
  14. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    MS66 Altered Surfaces, thumbing
     
  15. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    Not arguing, but wouldn't they have cleaned up the shaves on the lower jawline while they were at it?
     
  16. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    The ones I have seen they frost them up a bit and then add a few fresh marks back.
    If there were no marks at all it would look very out of place and be detected.
     
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  17. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Don't make something out of this that is just not there. If you had the coin in hand you would understand just how wrong you are.
     
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  18. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    Here is the one I have.
    The hairlines only show from one direction and they run north & south across the cheek.
    If you notice the hit on the neck you will see there is no metal pushed up on one side or the other of the hit. The other hits are flattened also but would need focused photos of each hit.

    IMGP6021 (2).JPG IMGP6021 (2).JPG IMGP6025 (2).JPG IMGP6023 (2).JPG IMGP6026 (2).JPG IMGP6030 (2).JPG IMGP6030 (3).JPG IMGP6030 (3) hl.jpg
     
  19. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    Ooops, the first 2 photos are the same.
     
  20. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    I bought my coin in Oct of 2006 and have found and studied 7 or 8 of them over the years and all have been in old PCI holders.

    Once you see it you can't un-see it.
     
  21. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    It is hard to get a good photo of the frost that kills the cartwheel.
    You can kind of see it in these photos.

    upload_2022-3-10_22-40-37.jpeg upload_2022-3-10_22-40-56.jpeg upload_2022-3-10_22-41-25.jpeg upload_2022-3-10_22-41-44.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
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