The mint mark font is totally WRONG! It has the wrong "N" in UNITED There is problems with the designer's initials, but the image makes that area a bit questionable, but if the period following the "V" is over to the backside of the "D" then that's VERY wrong? I had gotten a listed for this same coin removed earlier today, what I'm not sure of is this listing on the same seller account??? So, this is one that's may need some help getting taking down. https://www.ebay.com/itm/265582325002?hash=item3dd5f0ad0a:g:QXMAAOSwt7diJS35
Well, the odd thing is if you look to the left side (base) of the "D" in the designer's initials, is that the period for the "V"?
Looks like it and boy is it way off. Both dots are. Also the N in UNITED is the one that never appears in the SVDB.
At a minimum it has an added mint mark. There are a lot of fakes on the market so don't buy one unless you can confirm its the real deal. China is punching out all type of fake coins. Don't assume it's real even if it's in a slab. There are counterfeit slabs out in the market too. Buy only from a well-known dealer and the coin is certified by PCGS, NGC or ANACS.
Technicly yes, it is illegal to own or posses counterfeits... but... "Fantasy coins" are acceptable... the catch in the law is if there is intent to "defraud" someone (ie spend it or sell it as real) We call these "black box" coins and Many of us own at least one (i actualy do have a small collection of them myself) Included among them are quite a few Liberty dollars, which were illegal to own when determined to be counterfeits, but are now acceptable as "fantasy coins"... In the end, this is not a law that is usualy enforced except when someone does commit some type of fraud... Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine of up to $15,000, or 15 years imprisonment, or both.
Unless you are sufficiently versed in grading a 1909 S VDB, which you cannot do via a picture, you should not purchase a raw coin. I have been doing this for to many years and given the market today there is no way in hell I would purchase a raw 09svdb. Semper Fi Phil
I have no need myself to buy one, but if the pictures are decent I believe I could choose a genuine one (now). For close two years now, I've searched ebay's newly listed SVDB's several times a day, everyday looking for and learning how to spot a phony, in the past maybe 8 months I've added the search for 14-D Lincolns. I'm thinking I've only ever had ONE genuine SVDB in my hand. Here is a genuine raw SVDB, (currently listed on ebay) Die set #3 (die chip in the upper loop of the mint mark) Correct designer's initials, (all periods in the correct location, the center bar of the B correctly slanted) Shallow valley N in united, correct fonts, good pictures, etc.... Also, seller is a well established dealer, but I've found counterfeits listed on well established ebay coin dealers too, but they're VERY quick to pull it once its pointed out via a message, and they'll guarantee authenticity. That's a REALLY big deal right there!
The MM would make me stay away second would be the initials. Smart move on your part. When in doubt be safe not sorry. Thank you for sharing it!
@Bones-65 The slab photos you posted are not "basement slabs" they are counterfeit slabs. A basement slab is one from a "fly-by-night" "do it yourself" slabber. Most will be way overgraded. That is much different than a counterfeit PCGS or NGC slab. Also you have run into problems in other threads posting a genuine coin in a thread for a counterfeit coin. This can add confusion.
Your right about me giving those slabs the wrong title LoL I used to get called out for calling any phony SVDB "Counterfeit" I can sometimes generalize to much. Altered isn't genuine, fake, isn't genuine, counterfeit, not genuine ect... To break myself of that habit I came up with a gender neutral "Another Phony" until I could correctly title it. I'm pretty new in the learning to spot a "Phony" slab for sure, I'd trust my judgement on spotting a counterfeit/altered SVDB just looking through the slab and leave the slab out of the factor completely (or make it a separate issue). Thanks for following, and thanks for your input!
The most common fakes in no particular order. 1) A genuine 1909 P VDB with an added S. This can be done by embossing or glue. 2) A genuine 1909 S with an added VDB. This is almost always done by embossing. 3) The entire coin is counterfeit and there is nothing genuine about it. This is very common from overseas counterfeiters.
There isn't really a way to run the numbers on your question so some speculation is required LoL! I would 'Think' taking in that the alteration process isn't production line process, they have to have a coin, they have to work at the alteration aspect of it, where as say a foreign counterfeiting setup gets things ready, gets a source of metal, and starts cranking out counterfeits. /// More of this type or more of that type? A little more speculation LoL based on what I've seen in my findings of searching for these phonies for the past nearly two years. Altering say a 09-S to include designer's initials requires searching & finding a semi key dated coin to alter, well that for sure sets limits on how many of them might make it into what I'll call circulation, so I'd say the the altered 09-S is the lest of the phonies out there. /// So, that leaves the more likely coin to be altered just due to the fact that they can be bought in rolls of 50 at Flea markets, Fleabay, etc.... and pretty cheap at that. (speculation) and that's the 09P-VDB. Of course the alteration to this coin is to add an "S" mint mark. How is that done? the best answer I can give is solely based on handed down information from a good number of active forum members on coin forum's (not personal experience). I've heard some are glued on, some soldered on, but here heat damage on the coin has to be dealt with. The other method mentioned was embossing, but that method had a good number of rebuttals followed claiming that that process is done on larger silver coins, but not Cents, they're two small & to thin???? /// Back to what I feel (speculating) would be the most common 09SVBD phonies out there, "Counterfeits" I find lots of them listed in single listings of course, but on a number of occasions I've found China listings (really located in China) where the seller's were selling them in group lots of 40 and with 10 or more groups available, and that's just on Fleabay! these seller's has flea market peddlers that will sell these garbage coins all day long. Another way these counterfeits get distributed is Estate sales! I found out several years ago (in my area) that there is people who are hired to actually do the Estate sales for a CUT of the sales, I also KNOW that they can and do setup there own tables of stuff that wasn't the home owners, Coins & Jewelry (Flea Market type stuff) is easy to pack up and move around. There is also CHINA online catalogs full of all kinds of counterfeited coins including SVDB's. Most of these catalogs will show pictures of coins stamped "COPY" in a good number of cases coins are being SHIPPED not stamped. /// What information I can find online, the general consensus seems to be that the 09SVDB is the most counterfeited of ALL US COINS! (The King Of Lincoln's) followed by 1916-D dime. Also the general consensus is that the counterfeits (including altered) of these two coins out number of the US minted genuine coins!
It's not illegal to own or collect counterfeit coins. The illegality is in the intent to defraud, sell such coins. All of those coins must be labeled as fakes, counterfeits etc. With no intent to deceive or overcharge as a legit coin. You can sell a coin that is a fake to a collector, both parties know it is a fake. I assume that it is illegal to produce, or manufacture such coins.
