Seleucid "Egyptianizing"

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Sulla80, Feb 27, 2022.

?

Is this Isis?

  1. Yes - an underweight SC 1414

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No - it's Antiochus IV an unpublished denomination B

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. No - it's Ptolemy IV an unpublished denomination B

    0 vote(s)
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  4. Yes - it's a contemporary counterfeit

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  5. Yes - just sloppy work at the mint

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  6. ??? - I have no idea - could be anyone

    3 vote(s)
    50.0%
  7. You are way off base, @Sulla80, it is....

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  1. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    Francesco Bartolozzi Gems Isis.jpg Public domain image derived from a 1783 publication of gems engraved by Francesco Bartolozzi after drawings by G.B.Cipriani.

    This coin was produced in Antioch during the sixth Syrian war (170-168). At 10.32 grams it is significantly underweight compared to the 18-19.99g median of Seleucid Coin 1414. I don't have a good explanation for this - contemporary counterfeit? smaller unpublished "Denomination B" (SC 1415)? a mint mistake? overstruck on a smaller coin?
    I find the portrait a bit unusual too - lacking the obvious hair in long curls falling to the neckline - is this really a portrait of ISIS - it does seem to have an Isis headdress? could it be a laureate portrait of Antiochus or Ptolemy VI? Other suggestions?
    upload_2022-2-27_6-1-30.png
    Seleucid Empire, Antiochos IV Epiphanes, 175-164 BC, Æ (22mm, 10.32g) "Egyptianizing" series, Antioch on the Orontes mint, struck 169-168 BC
    Obv: Head of Isis right, wearing tainia
    Rev: ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ANTIOXOY ΘEOY EΠIΦANOYΣ, eagle standing right [on thunderbolt].
    Ref: SC 1414
    Notes and more related coins: Antiochus IV "Egyptianizing"

    While it won't win any beauty contests, it is interesting for the Ptolemaic eagle reverse and Isis obverse.

    Antiochos IV Epiphanes invaded Egypt twice during this time. The co-regents of Ptolemy VI attempted to retake Syria and Phoenicia, lost to Antiochos III during the Fifth Syrian War. In November 170, Seleucid and Ptolemaic armies clashed near Mt. Casius, on the border between Turkey and Syria near the mouth of the Orontes River. Antiochos IV won decisively, and earned Egyptian goodwill by sparing the lives of the defeated soldiers.

    At the time when Antiochus occupied Egypt, he was joined by envoys sent from Greece to make peace. Giving them a kind reception, he entertained them splendidly upon meeting with them for the first time, and on the second granted them an audience, and bade them tell him what their instructions were.
    -Polybius, The Histories, XXVIII, 20.1-2


    Antiochos was so persuasive that Ptolemy Philometor joined Antiochos in Memphis and his regents in Alexandria reacted by setting up a competing government. Ptolemy Philometor remained the recognized ruler in most of Egypt outside of Alexandria. When Antiochos failed to capture Alexandria and in 169 returned to Syria, he left Philometor as King, and the King reconciled with his siblings. This caused Antiochos IV to reenter Egypt and establish himself as king. However Rome surprisingly influential in this exchange (at least from point of view of Livy).

    "After crossing the river at Eleusis, about four miles from Alexandria, he was met by the Roman commissioners, to whom he gave a friendly greeting and held out his hand to Popilius. Popilius, however, placed in his hand the tablets on which was written the decree of the senate and told him first of all to read that. After reading it through he said he would call his friends into council and consider what he ought to do. Popilius, stern and imperious as ever, drew a circle round the king with the stick he was carrying and said, "Before you step out of that circle give me a reply to lay before the senate." For a few moments he hesitated, astounded at such a peremptory order, and at last replied, "I will do what the senate thinks right.""
    -Livy This History of Rome, 45.12.3-6


    The Ptolemaic eagle on the reverse stands on a thunderbolt and faces left versus facing eagle of Egyptian coins. Antiochos planned to annex Cyprus and possibly part of Egypt proper. This "Special "Egyptianizing" Series" is dated in Seleucid Coins as "autumn 169-summer/autumn 168". Seleucid Coins authors report that Svonoros catalogs the series as "struck by Antiochus IV during his occupation of Egypt". It may have been produced for use Seleucid controlled Ptolemaic territories.

    Please share your point of view in the survey on this coin is and/or post your coins of Ptolemy VI Philometor, Antiochos IV, or anything else you find interesting or entertaining.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2022
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  3. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Looks like a masculine Isis to me. Maybe it's, His-is:p. Here she is with her crown below:
    2112865_1628875428.l-removebg-preview.png Screenshot_20210812-121927_PicCollage-removebg-preview.png
     
  4. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    An interesting specimen, @Sulla80

    Mine is rather light too (14 grams) - I assume from being in horrible condition, but maybe it is a counterfeit. It does have the long curls. I don't know enough about these to offer a valid opinion, however:

    Seleucid -Antiochos IV Egyptianized Apr 2018.jpg
    Seleucid Kingdom Æ 27
    Antiochos IV Epiphanes
    Post-Conquest Egyptianized
    Series. Antioch Mint
    (169-168 B.C.)

    Head of Isis right with taenia & Isis headdress / BAΣIΛEΩΣ ANTIOXOY ΘEOY EΠIΦANOYΣ, eagle standing rt. on thunderbolt
    SC 1414; SNG 981; Sv. 1417.
    (14.15 grams / 27 mm)
    eBay Apr. 2018
     
  5. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    Anything under 14 is out of the norm for these. I suspect it is an official coin made on an undersized flan, thus making it an error. If it were a new denomination, I would also expect the flan size to be less than denomination A which is 22-29mm.
     
    ominus1, Sulla80 and Marsyas Mike like this.
  6. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    Thanks David@PCC - I was thinking it might be a variant of known Denomination B (1415) which is 19-21mm and 5.12-11.11gm median 9.0-9.49 - 1415 is radiate. On the one example I can find - the radiate is not subtle (8.4g 23mm)
    upload_2022-2-27_21-56-5.png
    I do lean to same conclusion - sloppy work and official mint work.
     
    Marsyas Mike likes this.
  7. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    The style fits 1414 from what I've seen. 1415 is somewhat common. Here is one outside the norm, but on the larger side.
    Screenshot_20220227-214733_Samsung Internet.jpg
    Even though this is denomination B, it could be considered A by it's diameter. Bronze were not held to a strict standard and I've seen some variations that make you wonder what's really going on. Unless it's a named denomination such as a chalkous or something I never agreed 100% with the SC bronze denominations (aaa to e) and found them to be arbitrary.
     
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