Undertype on a 1796 S-85 large cent?

Reviewing images of a TPG certified 1796 large cent and see what appears to my eyes to be an undertype of ONE CENT above and to the left of the main impression.

This is the 1st I have seen like this and appreciate more eyes to verify!




By the way, cert states "GENUINE", Edge Damaged- VF Details.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

At first Glance, the obv seems to show a couple of stars and possibly the swirl of a lower hair curl on the bust. The ONE CENT under type also looks slightly larger.

To me, the under type looks like it could be Coronet or Braided Hair large cent. That's not possible unless it's a counterfeit over struck on a later type

 

I have no idea (not my wheelhouse) but can clearly see the one behind the one shadowed. still pretty cool for a ugly reverse.

 

Wow! Interesting coin Jack! I can't get past the star on the obverse unless it is pareidolia. The reverse does share the same look as a double struck coin, or over struck coin.
For reference, this is a DC.
Look at HALF.

 

WOW; I saw the "star" last night and thought it was my eyes...
Cool observation @Oldhoopster !

 

And yes, this is a struck counterfeit; we have theorized the counterfeiters used cull large cents initially for their planchets but had never documented undertype on one as possible proof...

 

Image of the "undertype" to a braided hair 1852; larger letters and the "E" of ONE looks closer to this than the 1796:

 

A friend suggested this is a corroded late date Petite Head large cent used for the planchet, with the back of the lowest curls on the neck and the back of the hair bun up by the nose.

 

1852 large cent for reference:

 

And now "TY"...

 

What an odd coin. Can't contribute much but I note that the right branch of Y on the 1852 points just below the star, and on the 1796 whatever-it-is the right branch of Y points just above the star. Poking around it looks like a better match to an earlier large cent? On the petite head the right-Y seems to point to the middle of the star.

 

wow I am going to tiptoe around this one. It looks genuine and fantastic to me. The odd things I'll leave to the experts. Nice coin! Thanks for posting.

 

What is the determined grade of the coin? That is one interesting '96, thanks for sharing it.

 

VF Details- Edge Damage.

 

Any new theories? The corrosion up against the letters on both sides and the bottom edge of the bust looks authentic to me, which if so indicates it was done a long time ago. Contemporary counterfeit makes no sense. Could it be "mint sport" from the early-mid 1800s using the original dies? When did these first start having collector value?

 

The reverse looks like a simple double strike to me. a slight flattening of the original design could account for a small variation in size.

My first thought on the Obverse Stars would be a Half Eagle (25mm) or Eagle (33mm) Die as a source since they were contemporaneous (1796) with the Cent (29mm).

I'm not saying this is the solution to the quest, just another possibility to consider.

Quarters, Halves and Dollars also used stars on the obverses in 1796 and it is only a year removed from known use of TAL Tokens as stock in 1795 (NC-2), a S-78 I think is a TAL Token Stock planchet and cut down for use as Half Cent stock planchets.

Now an introduction of 19th century counterfeiting using worn out planchets leaves many avenues to pursue in this quest.

 

No new theories; it is a struck counterfeit first!
I believe a corroded late date large cent purchased in a group of culls was used as the planchet; the damage in the center (a possible lamination) caused it to be thin and prevented it from striking out the undertype when the counterfeit was struck.

 

Comparison of this one and an 1843 N4:

 

It took be a while to see it, but the evidence Jack is showing is very convincing. Yet another Counterfeit I would not recognize on my own.

Now the question is whether it is a 19th, 20th or 21st Century Counterfeit. It will be the rarest Transfer Die I've seen if this is how the dies were created in the 21st century.

The possibility of Mint sport using old dies in the 19th Century about the same time as the 1804 Restrike is an appealing idea as well.

I can almost convince myself one of my S-85s has a similar look, if not condition.

 

I spend a lot of time at the border of pareidolia and detection. I may cross that border at times.