Thoughts on an interesting "1909-S VDB"?

He needs to post a SHARP image of the VDB - as sharp as the image posted by another member. In the fuzzy image, the "B" looks too far to the right. Best bet: added VDB. Furthermore, I should expect that since 1972 (50 years), someone would have confirmed the existence of this "gem." I hold out more faith that a 1910-S cent will be confirmed and added to the Redbook. However, it would be great if this is a new discovery.

 

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KBBPLL, asked: "Same here. Can someone clarify what this "sharp N" is supposed to be? Is it the bottom right of the N in UNITED? Because on Heritage I'm seeing 1909-S (no VDB) both with and without a pointy bottom right of N. The ones with the squared off N so far all seem to be the low right mint mark position, same as the OP coin."

Agree. And I want to know about all the other "diagnostics" found on these like the:

1. weak "O"
2. sheared rim
3. missing periods
4. Thin collar
5. tilted "T"
6. Low "D"
7. cracked wheat
8. Split "A"
9. double collar break
etc.


Get my drift?

 

OP's coin is a sharp N, which there are none documented for the 1909-S VDB.

OP's coin:


My coin:

 

The N in UNITED is the focus of this variety. There is the N that has a sharp, deep valley from the top left to the bottom right. Then there is the N that has a shallow, blunted valley.

The sharp valley is seen on the 1909, 1909-S and 1909 VDB. It has not been seen on any 1909-S VDB’s. The shallow, blunted valley is seen on all 4 and so far is the only one seen on the S VDB.

Sharp


Blunted or shallow

 

OK, I see it now, thanks for clarifying. The bottom right of N is also very squared off on some and on others comes to a point or nearly so, as seen in your two examples.

 

I am thinking all 4 1909-S VDB reverses can trace their roots to a common working hub.

 

Then we can deduce this sequence, using my three cents.

Early in the year the SVDB was produced using four obverse dies and an unknown number of reverses. All the reverses shared this shallow N.


Later, the S without VDB was produced. It is interesting to me that this shares the same N, but that the VDB initials were not present. If they were removed from the master hub it was done very well. Or a new master was created? I confess it is not obvious how these share the same shallow N but one has VDB and the other does not. Maybe someone who understands this better can explain it.


Then, even later, the reverse was redone to clean up the sloppy N. The U is thinner and the I and T are thicker, making them a uniform style. This is obviously a mid-year touchup to fine-tune the new coin’s appearance (IMHO).


Since we can see that a 1909-S can have a Shallow N reverse, it means that the Shallow N continued after all the SVDB’s were struck. Therefore it seems unreasonable that any of the SVDB’s would be found with the sharp N, which seems to have come into use later.

If this reasoning holds up, it would imply the coin in the original post is a 1909-S with added V.D.B.

Edit: this is the date position of my 1909-S with the sharp N reverse. It matches the questionable coin.

 

@Jack D. Young any word from your contact at PCGS?

 

Not yet.

 

The Lincoln cents were not made early in the year. Production didn't start until probably late July with release on Aug 2nd. The 454,000 09 SVDB's, assuming four presses running, would have only taken 31 hours to strike.

 

I have mapped 7 different Obverses for the 1909-S Cent (excluding the RPMs). Although 1 of the 7 obverses may be an rpm. I can't remember. There may be other obverse I haven't mapped.

Anyway I overlaid the OP coin obverse and it appears to be 1909-S obverse cyan. I overlaid the OP coin reverse with the VDB map and the OP's VDB appears to be mislocated. So I lean towards the theory that the coin is a 1909-S with a VDB added to the reverse.

Also overlaid the obverse of the real coin 1909-S Jack posted and it appears to be obverse cyan.

 

There's no doubt that is an exact MM placement for the S no VDB.
I guess the focus is only on the reverse. And it doesn't seem to line up either. How did this make it into a slab?

 

Good information.

I should have said “earlier” because I was trying to indicated a relative timing, not an absolute time during the year. The mint had to produce the 1909-S Indian Head cents first, then the 1909-S VDBs, and later the 1909-S No VDBs.

I like your point about four presses. If you have four presses and run them simultaneously, then you need four dies. I had this image of using one press and replacing the die when it was worn.

Of course, if there were four presses and four obverse dies, there would have been four reverse dies that would be matched 1-to-1 with one of the obverses. Has anyone done this research to see if that is the case?

 

Awesome work as always @justafarmer !

 

Like many others, quick look and a slabbing we go...

 

If all the working dies were made from the same HUB, the reverses would technically all look the same. I don't know how many working hubs were used.

 

Or use the number of a cracked out authenticated S VDB.

 

Could be, but the image of the holder looks good. I sent the images to my contact at PCGS for his review.

 

Yes and No. But you have to dig deeper than the coin design for the die's unique characteristics.

 

Because the coin LOOKED genuine and the PCGS graders did not examine it with a stereo microscope. SVDB's are as common as dirt in a grading room. Most alterations are obvious so the authenticators possibly get a little "jaded" at times.

There are a few diagnostics on the reverse and a little work has been done (not published) matching MM position w/reverses. It is still on a "back burner" for now but anyone with access to the coins can do it. If they decided to do the matches and publish their findings, the ANACS AUTHENTICATORS COULD DO IT in a week or three! I don't have the time. So if they decided to do the matches and publish their findings, the ANACS AUTHENTICATORS COULD DO IT in a week or three! If they decided to do the matches and publish their findings, the ANACS AUTHENTICATORS COULD DO IT in a week or three! So if they decided to do the matches and publish their findings, the ANACS AUTHENTICATORS COULD DO IT in a week or three! I hope they read this.