question about "tooling". I am a bit blown out of the water looking at a coin for sale in upcoming CNG Triton XXV section 6 #446 Octavian and Julius Caesar. Very nice looking and to CNG's credit in an honest description they do state "tooled and smoothed" and reference ex Elsen 144 (14 March 2020), lot 446. The present coin is very attractive and hard for me to see tooling in the photo -- but then I go to NumisBids to look at the Elsen coin and it is almost impossible to believe that they are the same coin just 2 years earlier. There is someone out there who is a world class genius at ?repairing coins -- how in the world he or she can do this is beyond my experience and I am a sculptor. Luckily for me I stick with my inexpensive coins because I now think that this is much more widespread than anyone can understand.
Yeah, I was pretty grossed out with just how many "smoothed" sestertius they had led alone the ones marked "tooled". Selling tooled coins to me is no better than selling modern reproductions. I felt so lucky that the 2 that I really wanted hadn't been tooled or smoothed...then the bidding began
Seems to be a completely remanufactured coin. Obviously all of the metal surfaces have been severely changed. Should be sold as a fantasy piece.
To my eye (without referencing the original) the coin looks 100% re-engraved and not genuine at all. Especially the portrait of Julius Caesar appears to be nothing like any other portrait I've ever seen, and based on the condition of both the obverse and reverse surfaces, the detail in the portraits' hair looks positively goofy.
I can't put up with tooling. It changes coins in a way that they are still authentic, but essentially ruined.
For chuckles and ease of access I thought I would share the cartoonish image: BTW: somebody who may or may not know what "tooled and smoothed" means is bidding $300 on this and it is still weeks out!
Well that's a damn shame. It was a perfectly fine coin before the hacksawing. If you want coins that look modern, here's an idea: go collect some modern coins. Leave the ancients looking ancient.
Would have fooled me! This is why I'll never again buy raw bronzes. I gave it a shot at one point and had to learn the "Tooling Lesson" the hard way (7/9 tooled). I really don't want to learn that lesson again. And, even if I were willing to put effort into developing the skill to identify tooling, I have my doubts about whether it could reliably be done with photos.
I may be reading your comment incorrectly but I was surprised that the coin only stood at $300. Were it 'fully original' with that level detail (which it obviously is not) I would expect that coin to go for a great deal more than that. Weeks out may keep it from being four digits yet but all it will take is two people with excess cash and not enough sense to be working with a representative who could advise them that this coin will only appeal to people who do not care if they are having an original as long as what they have is high grade. This is a very popular type due to the scarcity of large bronze options for Caesar or Augustus separately let alone together. $300 might get you a VG with rough patches. Where most of us here might differ is whether we would rather have the coin in question, the rough VG or keep or money until we find the right coin with the right surfaces that is 'original'. I fear that big dealers have realized that they can sell coins like this to those who do not know or simply do not care. I do disagree with the description 'smoothed and tooled'. IMO tooled coins will imply leaving the coin with smooth surfaces and most likely a fresh paint job patina so it is not necessary to mollify the description by calling it smoothed. Great! Now we have the question as to which would sell for more in today's market. I say they will have no trouble selling the tooled one to someone who will neglect to tell someone else about the full history of the coin or even that there are any people who care.
These people are just awful! The coin is already up for auction again!!! And they have FURTHER tried to "correct" the coin by modernizing it so that those unfamiliar with this type don't notice that the coin has been altered!
You got it right Doug! 1 bid so far at $300 with an estimate of $500. I looked up the other and it sold for $200. https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=446&p=lot&sid=3738 Who says destroying history doesn't pay?
Like you said, whoever did that is crazy skilled! I'm not terribly knowledgeable about how this is even done. But I wonder how many hours get invested into something like this. Even if a person had the skill, and was willing to swindle people, what could they possibly be making per hour in a reasonable case scenario?
Comparing the before and after photos, I wonder if some sort of chemical was used to remove some of the deposits, followed by tooling and smoothing. The color of the after coin looks porous and dark, but that might be due to the lighting. Chemicals can leave a coin dark and rough, almost as if it is from a salvage.
The bandwagon tells us this coin is nothing like it was originally. I disagree. (Okay, you can pile on now.) Look closely at the Elsen picture and you will see the hair, wreath, and lettering under that encrustation. Look at dozens of examples of that type and you will see the Julius Caesar portrait is normal. Yes, the has probably been chemically cleaned, and it has been smoothed and the letters outlined, but I have followed the type since the late 1970s and that is normal (not desirable, but utterly common). If you want this type with no "problems", be prepared to wait a long time and pay a lot more.
I agree -- this is pretty dang close to the original to my eye -- unless the following was also "tooled." And I love the type -- just can't ever afford it. Sale: Triton VIII, Lot: 984. Estimate $2000. Closing Date: Monday, 10 January 2005. Sold For $3750. This amount does not include the buyer’s fee. I wish I had such skill as the fellow who worked on the coin in the coming auction -- then I might be able to sell a sculpture or two. And, yes, I agree with a previous comment that his abilities were spent on the wrong thing -- it must have taken many hours of work and years of practice to do such a job. He could be making knives and selling them by the boatload on youtube. Perhaps two thousand years ago there were people with this level of skill but today?
Interesting example of this type. I would be willing to wager a significant amount of money that, if five acknowledged ancient coin experts examined this particular coin in-hand, at least four of them would conclude that the hair in both portraits has been significantly tooled. It does appear to be the model for the tooling in the OP coin.
