PVC Flips in Red 2x2 Boxes

I have a few people in mind to nominate for this test.

 

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Happy New Year!!.....Hope we live through it . Jim and Family.

 

Happy New Year to all!

 

I hesitate to offer something here, as I'm not a chemist.

But perhaps there is a way to explain Doug's findings in view of the chemical information offered above?

All solids have vapor pressure, so that means the alloy in the coin is going to have a vapor pressure all its own. Granted, copper must be melted to an extremely high temperature and become a liquid before it has a significant vapor pressure.

In Doug's experiment, everything is kept in the Tupperware container for six months.

In an enclosed space for six months, would there be enough vapor pressure from the coins themselves (or enough time--are the table values for vapor pressure made from compounds kept sealed for six months?) to interact with the dioctyl phthalate to form the "crud" on the surface of the coin?

This does not negate the fact that there can be direct leakage of a liquid from the plastic itself.

So maybe, depending on conditions, the vapor pressures themselves can combine to form the crud. This seems to be what Doug has found in his experiment of keeping everything sealed and apart for six months.

I know this is probably an out-of-left-field question, and irrelevant, but I just thought I would ask it.

And return to my burrow till Ground Hog's Day.....

 

I cannot comment on the "science" of using PVC flips but I can comment on the effect they have on coins both silver and copper. I inherited a large amount of coins from my father who had put them in PVC flips. He placed them in various containers(mostly Tupperware) and stored them in his house. After he passed away I acquired the coins and after going through them MOST of them were damaged by whatever the chemical reaction was. STORE THEM IN PVC IF YOU WANT PROBLEMS.
JMO
Phil

 

The discussion was not regarding the safety of PVC flips. It's acknowledged that PVC flips SHOULD NOT be used to store coins and that hasn't been advocated in any of the posts. The discussion is regarding the mechanism in which PVC plasticizer residue (the bad decomposition product) can migrate to surfaces, whether direct contact or vapor phase.

Understanding the transfer mechanism is important to help determine if you want to keep supplies that have been stored near Soft PVC materials, or feel that they could be contaminated and trash them (to be replaced at additional cost)

Hope this explanation helps

 

I suggest that the "doubters" do the experiment and see for themselves.

 

Is the odor From the PVC or from the plasticizer? It's the plasticizer that reacts with warm moisture to form hydrochloric acid

 

I would also mention that it is simply a fact that PVC that has the damaging softening agent in it off-gasses, puts of gasses. And this is easily proven to everyone who has ever opened and new PVC shower curtain, or a new pack of flips, and noticed the smell. What you're smelling is that gas. Point being its existence is beyond doubt (my emphasis)

While it appears that Phthalates are major sources of PVC plasticizers, there are others families of plasticizer as well. Could these account for the smell? Could other components contribute to the smell? Do shower curtains and coin flips have the same composition?

https://www.polynt.com/plasticizers-for-pvc/

The point I'm belaboring is that your observations, smells, etc are NOT proof that vapor phase transport of phthalates are a significant mechanism. I posted my observations on using acetone (and Freon 113) to treat an estimated 1000+ raw coins over the last 35 years, and saw no evidence of phthalate vapor phase deposition. Yet I didn't claim that as proof. Why? Because, I didn't have the scientific data to support it. If you believe the credibility of my observations, and the supporting info from @Kentucky great, I'm glad I could help. If you disagree, no problem. I am only providing annectdotal obsevations, NOT PROOF.

If you would have said something to the effect that "I've observed xXxX and that may indicate contamination could occur under these conditions", that would have been fine. But to discount other observations because you know your proof is right, doesn't fly, especially in a world of complex chemical reactions, with various components that may change, and difficulty finding appropriate chemical data.

Who knows, maybe we do need to worry about plasticizer off gassing. Or maybe we don't. But so far, I see no proof for either and to claim "Point being its existence is beyond doubt" may be a bit presumptuous

 

And.....again.

The words of The Bard are in order.

 

I think I'd be more leery of the off gases from the cardboard boxes and glue used on them.

 

I have a 1887 Morgan Silver Dollar BU but had a little gunk on it. I removed the green gunk with Acetone , pat dried and then air dried for one day and then place the coin in an Lighthouse Everslab holder. Then I placed the coin in a shoe box with other coins. The reverse of the Morgan abutted the box and I placed a 1966 Kennedy Half Dollar placed in an identical Lighthouse Everslab holder behind the Morgan. Doing my annual coin inventory I was shocked to see that the Morgan Dollar had green gunk on Liberty's cheek but the reverse was fully diseased. The Kennedy that abutted the reverse Morgan also now has green gunk started to my dismay. I guess I will clean both coins but will store them separated from my other coins.

 

Sorry, I guess I misread your previous post.

it is simply a fact that PVC that has the damaging softening agent in it off-gasses, puts of gasses. ............What you're smelling is that gas. Point being its existence is beyond doubt

 

And it's damage to coins!

 

I'm not qualified for the chemist portion of this discussion and luckily have not had the displeasure of PVC cancer on my coins.

However, I wish to play devil's advocate for a moment concerning the proposed test. Tupperware (or it's off brand counterparts) could, and according to google results, often do contain PVC themselves. How are the coins being placed in them? If in contact, that contaminates the data.

Just a thought - I think for the experiment to be more effective it needs to be in a known PVC free container. Glass perhaps.

 

Interesting - I had read some conflicting data that some storage containers did in fact contain PVC, however I believe (I'd have to find the article again) they were referencing cheap and/or older stuff. So maybe stick to quality brands and you're ok