Submitters, am I the only one that feels used?

Reading these comments about the increasing longer submission to receiving times I wonder if a lot of it has to do with a shortage of experienced graders. I don't know any number so I'm just speculating here but it seems that the numbers of coins being submitted to the top tier TPGs is just overwhelming their resources. One just can't advertise and pull an experienced coin grader off the street. Plus, if it was me, I'd get burned out very quickly having to grade modern mint products that are pretty much MS69-MS70 coins. What's the joy in that? At least getting to grade classic coins would be less monotonous. If anyone has some numbers that show the volume of coins the TPGs process each year please share. It would also be nice to compare the volume to the actual number of graders involved.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

PCGS did over 260k coins in the last 30 days which obviously had a number of holiday days

https://www.pcgs.com/Statistics/

It's very likely its logistical issues thats slowing them and NGC down, which is understandable but at least dont charge upon receipt when being so slow and tell people they cant cancel an order once its there like NGC is doing. PCGS is by no means fast right now but their times are about half sometimes significantly less than half of the ones NGC is currently posting and they face a lot more work restrictions in Cali than NGC does in FL.

Pure speculation but I'd guess NGC is facing issues from when they sold the company. Their pricing had some pretty big changes and their tiers changed to mimic PCGS ones but several have lower limits and higher prices now. Their pricing used to be about identical but now express is $80 at NGC and $65 at PCGS, NGCs modern used to start at 1955 now its the same as PCGS at 1965. Eventhough it effects very few people the NGC walkthrough limit is 25k and costs $175 where at PCGS its 100k limit and costs $150. Sometime after the sale NGC did become the most expensive overall for the major TPGs

Again though these prices will likely change again on New Year so we will see how much they jump

 

Indeed, a valid concern...on top of the concern. Too bad they don't at least e-mail the customer to let them know the coin has or will ship on a certain date/range and that your account will soon be charged, to prepare, etc. Maybe that's asking too much...customer service/courtesy...many are not flush with maintaining cash/balances.

 

Gosh, last time I submitted to PCGS, the payment had to accompany (be included with) the submissions and forms...!

 

Still does...but with a credit card they don't charge till the grades are published/coins are shipped. I would imagine a check would be cashed ASAP.

 

Old Error Guy, posted: "I’ve become completely convinced the top 2 TPG’s hold the individual collector in active disdain and have no interest in doing anything to improve the product. Absolutely none!"

Partly true. In my experience, the top two services don't care about the little guy. All of you could go away and they MIGHT lose 1 or 2 percent of their profit and 97% of the headaches! As for not caring about improving their product, you don't have a clue what you are writing. The top two services have improved their product by leaps and bounds. That's why they are so successful and it takes longer to get your coins. News Flash, at one time 20K coins a month got the slabbers a stake dinner at a top Steak House restaurant! Soon enough, 30K was needed for that steak.

I think baseball21 has nailed it. IMO, the ONLY way to clean up the backlog is to add extra shifts and stay open around the clock; however, I've been told that working at either top TPGS is like working in a sweat mill in the far east. That's too bad because when I started working at NGC in 1998, it was like a friendly family business - pure heaven.

 

@Insider, what do you think the grader turnover rate is today at the top two relative to ten years ago? How many coins is a grader expected to grade per day relative to ten years ago? In this regard, how does ICG compare? I always thought it would be nice to get trained and work as a grader. But in hindsite it may have ruined my passion to be a collector.

 

It is what it is. So I don’t worry about small stuff like that. My concern is what will it grade and will I be able move the item quickly when it gets back.

Perhaps one day they will invent a smart self grading holder you can get at Walmart for $5.

I just make certain I have enough available when pmt clears.

As far as them adding extra shifts / people - against that bad idea - would drive grading cost up lol. Just use quicker top tier but ya gonna have to pay the money.

 

I know that when it moves from grading to encapsulation to make sure the money is there. And my last 2 submissions took 9 weeks exact. 45 business days like the website says.

 

wxcoin, asked me:

1. "What do you think the grader turnover rate is today at the top two relative to ten years ago?'

I have no idea. About twelve years ago market conditions were different and some layoffs occurred. Lots of the top guys at one service left including its founder at another service. We hear rumors in recent years BUT see ads looking to hire new employees.

2. "How many coins is a grader expected to grade per day relative to ten years ago?"

I have no idea. As a grader/authenticator, I personally have NEVER been under pressure to grade a certain number of coins - ever at ANACS in DC, INSAB, PCI, NGC or ICG. After helping to start NCS at NGC it was the same - no pressure. Additionally, I have never known any employee who was pressured to perform. I do know of one employee who was let go because he was not doing a good job getting tokens graded and identified in a timely manner. Additionally, I SUSPECT that the young graders of SE need to get things done fast. Perhaps that's why not all 70's from ANY major TPGS are not true 70's.

3. "In this regard, how does ICG compare? I always thought it would be nice to get trained and work as a grader. But in hindsite it may have ruined my passion to be a collector."

I would not want to be a grader ANYWHERE if I had to start in 2000 or after unless I was a teen or twenty-something and loved coins , and planed to eventually become a coin dealer. I have been very fortunate to get my start when grading and especially authentication was in the "Extremely Dark Ages." We probably received less than seventy coins a week at ANACS in 1972. I don't wish to comment on how unbelievably wonderful the working conditions are for me now; but I will say that in spite of the 10 + hour days and large submission volume (we are training young replacements for some day in the future when our senior staff is found dead at our desk with big smiles) I get to spend as much time as I want to research, grade, photo, conserve, or attribute any US or foreign coin that comes into ICG. That's probably because big companies and stockholders don't own us.

PS I guess I've written in numismatic News before that between 10 and 20 seconds is a good average for most uninteresting vintage coins and moderns.

1. Remove from flip.
2. Look at both sides.
3. Looking again at both sides using a 7X lens & 100W incandescent light.
4. Often looking again using florescent light and a 7X scope.
5. Entering computer stuff
6. Place back in flip.

But, I've spent 10 to 20 minutes on a single coin several times a day! I'll bet that even a long-time, experienced grader can't do that at a top two TPGS. The coin would go to someone else similar to Dave Lange at NGC to research it or write an article.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply as an "insider"!

 

Headaches would disappear sure, but they'd lose a lot more profit than that. Before CU went private they had 20k or 30k memebers (which has grown since then) which is millions in revenue not counting any submissions they make.

If you combined all the little guys into one it would be one of the top submitters if not the top. Could they survive without them sure, but profit margin is higher and combined it is significant volume and a good chunk of revenue

PCGS has been doing extra hours and Saturdays with how things/grades are being reported popping up in the system. Not sure about Sundays. NGC might want to start doing the same.

Almost certainly higher since they're a lot more of them today. The greatest turnover though is likely with the modern bulk guys. I doubt there's much turnover with the guys that get to grade the Pogue coins unless they get poached away by a better offer.

 

baseball21, posted: "Headaches would disappear sure, but they'd lose a lot more profit than that. Before CU went private they had 20k or 30k memebers (which has grown since then) which is millions in revenue not counting any submissions they make."

I could reply with #'s and conversations but you seem to know more about the workings of PCGS than anyone posting on the internet. I will say that since the popularity of TPG's and the business volume has increased, 6+% could possibly apply today. Nevertheless, I will continue to stress that the little guys (less than 200 coins a year) that make up most of the second tier TPGS business (take away the TV sellers) are only needed and APPRECIATED by the second tier services.

PS baseball,

Why not contact the new boss at PCGS and ask her to improve the definitions used on their site.

"If you combined all the little guys into one it would be one of the top submitters if not the top. Could they survive without them sure, but profit margin is higher and combined it is significant volume and a good chunk of revenue."

Yeah, possibly true but IF's are for rainbows, butterflies, Miss Piggy, and green frogs.

 

It was a publicly traded company for many years, all the numbers were public in stock reports until they were sold and went private so I would love to hear your numbers for them.....

You could even do an extreme low ball of 20k collector members submitting once a year 5 coins each and thats 100k coins at full price which would be a minimum of 1.7 million IF every single one was a modern in grading fees alone.

That's obviously unrealistically low for a 1st tier world wide TPG to assume it would be an average of 5 coins for every "little guy submitter" or that they would all be moderns, but proves the point. We know for a fact that a 5 coin modern submission wouldnt be close to the average and that they make millions more per year off "little guys"

 

I wonder if anyone on the Board is an expert in credit card terms and conditions. Seems to me NGC could be jeopardizing their ability to accept credit cards. I am pretty sure its against Visa and MC Terms and Conditions to charge accounts before goods or services are delivered/performed.

 

I look at it this way "Mr. PCGS," 1.7/30 = 5.6% The little guys don't count. Another clue can be seen by the way a company deals with customers.

Sexist comment WARNING to snowflakes: I think things will improve at PCGS under their new female CEO.

 

I get it you're trying to get business for your company, but for someone who likes to be a stickler for facts and words you pretty much ignored most of what I said and just made up an unrealistic number. You were right this is a waste of time trying to discuss.

 

Don't be silly. You have been accused several times on several forums of being a PCGS "fanboy." I personally don't care because your posts are virtually always very informative! "Mr. PGCS" is some "between the lines" humor to you from me. You brought up numbers and loss of profit - not me. As for ignoring the numbers , anyone should understand that a 2 million dollar loss is insignificant if the total profit is extremely higher than that.

I'll PM you with some "inside baseball" info that might straighten you out about ICG. However, I will say publicly that ICG is doing very well. I do not need to drum up customers as our product/customer relations speaks for itself. If you thought that our special offer to CT members is a cry out for coins, you are mistaken.