The most beautiful coin from Topiros

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Jochen1, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    Thracia, Topiros, Caracalla, AD 198-217
    AE 28, 16.95g, 27.80mm, 210°
    struck AD 211 (between death of Severus Feb. 211 and murder of Geta Dec. 211 or Feb. 212)
    obv. AVT KM AVR - ANTWNINOC
    Head, bearded, laureate, r.
    c/m circular incus with AVR as monogram
    rev. OVLPI - AC TOPI / ROV
    Tetrastyle temple, columns with cannelures, trigonal roof without entablature;
    empty intercolumnaria; on each side a low base with a horseman raising r. hand
    ref. Varbanov (engl.) 2682
    extremely rare, EF, probably the most beautiful coin of Topiros, a rare city in Thracia.

    topiros_caracalla_Varbanov2683.jpg

    This countermark is found on other coins of Caracalla too. Not in Howgego. Actually it is not a real countermark, because it was engraved into the original die before (see coll. H.Agndal at FAC!). Ulrike Peters: This incus is known for Domna, Caracalla and Geta from AD 211. Possibly for some imperial privileges.

    Topiros was situated some miles north of Abdera at the river Nestos.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2018
    shanxi, Carl Wilmont, GinoLR and 30 others like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Oh, my! Wonderful.

    I've never heard of Topiros. Or, for that matter, a faux counterstamp. Fascinating.

    What's the "divot" in the blank field inside the temple? Is that one of those so-called "centration dimples" (whatever the correct term may be?)

    Lovely Æ. Great strike, high grade, terrific design and style.

    I might not have known such a coin or province existed before I clicked in, but I know what I like when I see it!
     
    Magnus87 likes this.
  4. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Kind of like https://www.cointalk.com/threads/what-do-you-suppose-this-is.329042/#post-3270657 :)
     
    lordmarcovan and Ryro like this.
  5. PeteB

    PeteB Well-Known Member

    Spectacular....and from a very rare issuing city!
     
  6. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    A wonderful coin @Jochen . By the way, a warm welcome to CT.
     
  7. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    What's the "divot" in the blank field inside the temple? Is that one of those so-called "centration dimples" (whatever the correct term may be?)

    Yes, it is. But actually it was not for centration but for smoothing the flan before striking. The hole arose by the tip of the tool that was used for smoothing. Please take a look at Lathe Machining of Bronze Coin Flans
    http://www.classicalcoins.com/flans1.html

    Jochen
     
    Ryro and lordmarcovan like this.
  8. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Thanks. I knew "centration dimple" was a misnomer, but not what the correct term was.
     
  9. PeteB

    PeteB Well-Known Member

    Here is a quite graphic picture of the flan smoothing tool evidence:
    Gordian III. 238-244 AD. MOESIA INFERIOR, Nicopolis ad Istrum. Æ (27mm, 12.52 gm, 7h). Obv: Radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right, wearing a sharp depiction of head of medusa and aegis. Rev: Zeus seated left, holding patera and scepter; eagle before. Mouchmov 1485.; Varbanov 4133. Obverse not fully struck-up and shows instructive circular abrasions from a flan smoothing tool, which, except for the punch mark, are usually eliminated by striking. GordianIIINicopolisZeus.jpg
     
    Carl Wilmont, TIF, randygeki and 5 others like this.
  10. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    Another example: nikopolis_gordianIII_HrJ(2011)8_36_35_4corr.jpg

    Coins of Gordian III from Nikopolis have often these traces. I don't know why.
     
    Carl Wilmont, GinoLR, TIF and 5 others like this.
  11. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    I love that countermark - or non-countermark, engraved, whatever it is, very interesting.
     
  12. PeteB

    PeteB Well-Known Member

    ADR, instead of AVR? AΔΡ? Or ΑΛΡ?
     
  13. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    Usually it is read ADR
     
  14. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I don't care what you call them but the dimple was an artifact of the centration pin of the tool used to smooth the flan. I would liken it to our modern Forstner bits except there is evidence that their central pins were separate an did not always rotate with the cutters. This image from my page shows a pin that was firm on the left and a pin that rotated on the right. I have lost the larger version of this. That page dates to a time when I got a lot of complaints about large photos that slowed loading for 14.4 modem users.
    [​IMG]
    Central Dimple is probably a better term. The coins with the circular scratches are weakly struck. The two above are not worn but never transferred detail to the high points of the portrait. Weak strikes exacerbate any lack of flatness of the dies making some coins weak in the center and others not. I suspect all flans had the circular marks but most were erased when stuck properly. I also am not surprised that some periods show more problems from poor technical workmanship than others. Why were these coins released looking that way? I would guess the workers were not disciplined for poor workmanship and the management needed every possible coin to meet the quotas.
     
    Carl Wilmont, PeteB and TIF like this.
  16. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    Dear Doug!

    I think the term "Centration Dimple" is unfortunately because they are not central. Please, take a look here

    markianopolis_diadumenian_HrJ(2011)6.25.13.5.JPG
    And even better: The obv. of the next coin shows the central protusion created by the compass to draw the circle on the die for the legend cutter, and below the off-centered dimple in the flan from the smoothing process.

    markianopolis_macrinus&diadum_AMNG736.jpg
     
  17. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Reviving this antique thread since information on coins of Topiros / Topirus is pretty scanty in general, and @Jochen1 starts things off with a truly "beautiful" example. Mine too has a temple; the same one in the OP perhaps (but the pediments seem different)?

    Here is a cheapie from eBay that is not beautiful at all. But it has my first "pseudo-countermark" and it appears to be fairly scarce (my attribution notes give some indication of this).

    The reverse type - Herakles sitting on a rock with a standing woman - is on several issues of Topirus. Sometimes in a temple, sometimes not. The woman is usually described as handing a bow to Herakles, but my only reference to mine says nothing about the bow (Moushmov), and I cannot see a bow on mine anyway.

    http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/thrace/topiros/t.html

    Anyway, here it is:

    CM - Topirus Thrace Caracalla Nov 2021 (0).jpg
    Caracalla Æ 28
    (c. 212-217 A.D.)
    Topirus, Thrace

    AYT K M AYPH ANTΩNIN[OC], laureate head right / OYΛΠ[IAC TOΠI]POY, Tetrastyle temple with Herakles seated on a rock left, giving his hand to a woman standing right.
    Moushmov 4981 (see notes).
    (15.87 grams / 28 mm)
    eBay Nov. 2021 $5.50
    Pseudo-Countermark: AMP monogram in 6 mm circle obverse. Howgego 604.
    "Although seemingly a countermark, the monogram on the obverse of the present piece was in fact engraved on the original die, as is evidenced by the clear raised rim and the exact repetition of both location and design on other examples of
    the type...." Roma Numismatics
    Host Coin Notes: The type with Herakles and a woman (usually described as handing him a bow) is also found on Topirus issues of Geta and J. Domna, usually not in a temple. The only reference to Caracalla of this type is a brief note
    in Wildwinds link to Moushmov:
    "4981: Tetrastyle temple with Herakles seated on a rock left, giving his hand to a woman standing next to him."
    www.moushmov.com/topiros.html

    I was unable to find any other listings, references or photos to Moushmov 4981; if anybody has seen another one, I'd love to hear about it.

    Any information about the woman giving Herakles a bow would be appreciated too.

    And of course anything from Topiros / Topirus.
     
    Carl Wilmont, PeteB and Bing like this.
  18. Rich Buck

    Rich Buck Yukon Cornelius

    close call between 1 and 2.
     
  19. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page