No Gold.......Why?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by 1934 Wreath Crown, Nov 18, 2021.

  1. 1934 Wreath Crown

    1934 Wreath Crown Well-Known Member

    Cleopatra VII, lover of Julius Caesar and Marc Antony, descendant of one of the richest dynasties (Ptolemaic Egypt), ruler of the bread basket of the known world and undoubtedly one of the richest, smartest, wealthiest and most powerful/influential women of the ancient world and yet there appears to be not a single ancient gold coin struck in her name. Why?

    Her predecessors struck the largest gold coins of the time (mnaieion or octodrachm weighing a hefty 27+gm.) but I've yet to see a gold coin struck in her name. If the silver and bronze issues bearing her portrait are pricey, imagine what a gold coin would be worth, should a hoard be found!!!

    For now I guess a bronze from Damascus will have to do.

    Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, Cleopatra VII Thea Neotera 22mm. Damascus, dated SE 280 = 33/2 BC. Diademed and draped bust of Cleopatra to right / Tyche seated to left on rock outcrop, extending hand and cradling cornucopia; LΠΣ (date) to left; below, river-god Chrysorrhoas swimming to right; all within laurel wreath.

    Svoronos 1893; SNG Copenhagen (Syria) 419; RPC I 4783; HGC 9, 1462; DCA 497. 8.39g, 22mm, 12h.

    I'm not particularly crazy about the portrait and the Botox treatment on her lips but then there aren't too many of these around:

    Cleopatra Tyche Damascus mint Obv.jpg

    Cleopatra Tyche Damascus mint Rev.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
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  3. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    My guess is that her immediate forbearers had come close to emptying the treasury to pay off Rome. Much of Egypt's remaining wealth was not in a form that could readily be minted as gold coins. And keep in mind that Rome circa 50 BC was not much interested in minting a gold coinage so that silver tetradrachmas, even debased ones, was more convenient for Rome to recoin for their own use.
     
  4. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    Maybe the people just didn't have much gold and silver. This is apparently the case in the 4th century A.D. see "Currency and Inflation in Fourth Century Egypt" by Roger Bagnall
     
  5. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    IIRC, it was the early and mid-Ptolemies who minted all the gold, not the later ones. I agree that it seems that Cleopatra *should* have issued gold, because the Roman takeover of the Hellenistic world was still far from complete in the 40s/30s BC, and it would make sense that Cleopatra would have many potential allies that could be bought for the right price.
     
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  6. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Germany seems to have the monopoly when it came to issueing gold coinage. Twenty percent of Friedberg are German gold coins. Even Bezos could not afford a complete collection. They struck them from the tiniest 1/32 Dukat to the 350 gram 100 Dukaten. Cleopatra was inept as a ruler/ she just had partying/ fooling around;) on her mind
     
  7. 1934 Wreath Crown

    1934 Wreath Crown Well-Known Member

    Come to think of it, she didn't mint very much in silver either. Most (if not all) of the silver coins carry joint busts of Marc Antony and Cleo, so most probably Roman silver provided by MA.

    The general consensus is that she was an astute ruler who brought law and order, peace and prosperity to Egypt but she was also burdened by her father's borrowings from Rome, which amounted to more than twice the GDP of ancient Egypt. And we all know that the cost of borrowing in those days was not 25 or 50 basis points above RFR or IBOR:D:D. The interest payments alone must have been crippling.
     
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  8. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Her silver coinage is probably more plentiful than her bronze actually, but I don't believe that she put her own face on silver; only Antony did that.

    Her silver instead followed the same formula as almost all of her predecessors for the previous ~300 years

    Cleopatra VII + Ptolemy XII AR tetradrachm, "Pseudo-paphos" mint, ambiguous date Λ/A (Ptolemy RY 30 / Cleopatra RY 1, 50 BC)
    Ptolemy XII and Cleopatra VII ltwt tet RY30 50 BC Paphos 8 61g.jpg
    Ptolemy XII and Cleopatra VII light tetradrachm Paphos 50BC.jpg

    And just for fun, my hideous AE "80 Drachmae" (it's easier to see the bust if you take off your glasses and stand at least 6 feet away from your screen)
    Cleopatra VII AE 80 Drachmae.jpg
     
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  9. 1934 Wreath Crown

    1934 Wreath Crown Well-Known Member

    But the value today is in the portrait not so much the metal value. Many monarchs used old coins to strike new ones in their name and portraits, even Queen Victoria. Thus coins from their predecessors became scarce/rare and super valuable. Wish she had struck a handful in gold and silver with her own portrait for posterity.:happy:

    Here’s another rare (but) copper issue from Orthoseia with her portrait. I like the Biga being drawn by Griffins.

    Cleopatra Orthoseia Obv.jpg

    Cleopatra Orthoseia Rev.jpg
     
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