United States of grading

I am confused as to why taking strike into account would mean that the 70 point scale cannot apply to hammered coins. Not all hammered coins will be weakly struck, as has been beautifully illustrated, and not all will be well struck, but this seems to be the case with all coins. I just am not understanding what a difference in manufacture has to do with the ability (or lack thereof) to grade a coin on a particular scale.

 

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Silvereagle,

I have been doing research on this coin for the last few months different dies. And just for fun I am the owner one of the three known proof version of it.

What I am trying to say and maby this link will help

http://www.hammeredcoin.co.uk/page.php?page_id=13

This is how hammered coins should be graded in my opinion.

If i´m correct the 70 point system was made by Dr William Sheldon with one cents am I correct ?

 

I remember your previous post :thumb:

I'm not here to defend any particuliar grading system ... Yes they all have their problems and shortcomings, but I still like a more defined set of grades than just poor/fair/fine/veryfine/extremelyfine. As we say over here ... different strokes for different folks

I buy/have bought quite a few coins in GB/Europe over the past 5 years, all in the "raw" and think I have a pretty good understanding of the basic grading system through my extensive research of catalogs and internet reference sites although it appears to me each country/region has its own grading standards within the basic defintions discussed by the website you referenced. This is very confusing also!

Again for what its worth .. I do not agree with the statement "Note the terms Uncirculated (UNC) and Fleur de Coin (FDC) really only apply to milled coinage (machine made coins)".

I think a larger problem between USA and GB/European grading standards than placing a numerical grade on a coin is the cleaning/damage issue. TPG companies here in the USA place a strict "no grade" value on cleaned,dinged,slightly bent, etc. whereas in GB/Europe they don't!!

I don't know about Dr. Sheldon and the one cent issue .... but I really don't think it is relevant

 

Thank you Silvereagle,

I´m only pointing out my thoughts on this.

A machined made coin can be graded MS70 as it is known how the perfect coin comes from the US mint.

A MS70 Hammered coin can not be graded because it is not know how these coins looked like at the time. Everything else is a guess.

So if you dont have the perfection then the rest does not work

 

Siggi,
I understand where your coming from regarding the hammered mint state issue ...... I just know from my experience that I have a few hammered gold pieces that are as "fresh" as the day they were hammered ... and you can tell from looking at them with only a 5x eye piece .... the gold lustre across the coins devices is undeniable !!

Hey ... check out the photo you have posted from your 500 kronur proof post ... What happened ?????

 

The good thing about coin collecting is that you can make a point and someone will always listen even if they do not agree. Thank you

I took if of photobucket, I just got a good camera a canon 500D or a rebel1 as it´s called in the US. So i´m going to take better pictures of the coin.

 

Hurry up and photo that baby ... can't wait to see the new and improved photos !!! It's hard to capture that proof image though

 

Stunningly beautiful coins!! Why "used" to own?

 

I am correct in saying that the same rules apply with the grading companys on hammered and machined coins?

 

I am going to say I have been prooven wrong and you are correct on the mint state of the coins.

What bothers me about using the 70 point system is that the grading company that is grading the coin has not had the oppertunity to hold one of these coins. Most of these coins like you have pointed out are in musiums. And i´m pretty sure they didnt just walk in and have said. Can I have a look.

How can you say that your coin is MS64 when you have never held a MS70 ? Isnt that guess work ?

 

I can understand your concern. That's a very reasonable question.

Yes, you are right - to some degree it is guess work, and rational "Good Science" thinkers are often uncomfortable with that.

But in this hobby, it's part Art, part Science. We do the best we can with what we have. Sometimes we have to extrapolate.

Overall, I feel the 70 point system can be used with any coins, even ancients. One simply adapts the numbers and descriptors to the series at hand. And yes, each series has its own unique quirks.

 

Common misconception, Dr Sheldon NEVER created a grading system. The 1 to 70 point system was an observation of the PRICE ratios between 1794 lage cents in different grades. The coins had to be graded FIRST and then the price ratio would be applied based on what a coin of that particular variety in the lowest grade was worth.

These price ratios has held true for some 25 years when Dr Sheldons book came out in 1949. He seems to have thought he had found some natural law that governed the values of the cents in the different grades.

But the interest created by the book drew many more collectors into the field. Naturally since collectors tend to want better pieces this created more pressure on the better coins and the ratios changed. In the 1958 edition of his book Dr Sheldon introduced various "correction factors" into the mess to try to get the old ratios to work again. But even more collectors entered the field and now the ratios didn't work again either with or without the correction factors.

After EAC came into existance in 1967, they spent several years trying to tweak the values and the correction factors to get the ratios to work again. Finally it was given up as a hopeless cause.

Shortly after it was given up, the ANA adopted the "Sheldon grading system" and applied it to all coins. But it must be realized that the numbers are meaningless. They do not measure anything they are just another name or label. The only advantage they have is that they show the order the grades run in.

Even there there was little reason for them. If you see the word grades written out About Good, Good, Very Good, Fine, Very Fine, Extremely Fine, is there really any doubt as to which is better than which? Do we have to put the 3, 4, 8, 12, 20, and 40 with them for you to know which is better? (And frankly if order is all that matters we could have used D, F, H, J, L, and N. It is just a label.) The only place where the number actually came in handy was in the Uncirculated grades. But only because the market kept adding new hype words and no one knew what order they belonged in. (Choice, Select, Gem, Superb) Plus the fact that different dealers used them in different order. The original "system" didn't have that problem as it only had three grades of Unc. Unc, Gem Unc, and Perfect. Pretty simple to see the order of those three.

"I don't know if a select is better than a choice, I can't define the difference and maybe can't even point out a difference between the two coins, but this one has a higher number so it must be worth more." Dreck.