Pimlico House robbed of coins from coin experts - thief found and sentenced

Maybe he's hoping to get shed of his wife.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

His wife died 5 months ago. My wife is 73 and I'm 74.

 

Whose wife?

 

I don't know, buuuuuttttt, "she" is hanging in there, at this location. Annoying. Really.

 

Yes, considering I didn't ask you.

 

The AI allgorthims are written and it is not needed to ID them all. IDing lsabbed coins might be a reasonble start since they already are assigned serial numbers and IDing coins sold for over $500 would be an excellent start.

https://www.tensorflow.org/

This can probably be adapted to the task although I am willing to bet that PCGS already has someting brewing inhouse.

I was thinking of trying this out to get it to id all my 1973 Ikes, as a starting project.

 

That is only because you have a selective memory as to what I post. There is a record and you can read the thread complete list of threads I started and the topic range from foriegn to ancients, to US coins to morderns, to museum collections to scholarly citations to also include the issue of coin theft and the failure, up until now, for the industry to cope with it adequately.

 

So you are advocating for the ability to track and value every coin that is turned into a grading service. How does this apply to the private sector?
There are too many "if's" in coin imaging.

 

Your right about that. Nothing is airtight, we can only be commited to making it harder by having legitamite auction houses and dealers be educated as to the depth of the problem and commit themselves to certain procedures in order to try to prevent both the theft and the reselling of hot coins.

Criminals stole Caravaggio's naitivity painting right out of the church in Palermo. It was believed to traded among Nepoleatono gangsters for decades.

If something like this is to happen with your coins, there is not a lot an AI or cooperation among dealers can do to assure that the objects will ever be returned or resurface.

But the majority of thefts, the coins do end up back on the market and if at any stage they get into the hands of an auction house or dealer, means and tools can be used to bring recovery in a systematic fashion. Today that is missing and the system actually encourages theft as this case quoted here is an exceptional result of a numismatic crime.

 

@cplradar There are numerous legitimate questions about the feasibility of your plan. Just saying "we need to do something" is noble but naive. So far, I've read the following,
* All coins (or some depending on which post you read) must be tagged to prove ownership before a collector can sell it

Could you start adding some high level detail to your plan to aid in the discussion

For starters
* where will you get your coins tagged by AI?
* which coins should be tagged? All? Only above a specific value? Who is going to determine the value of an individual coin to qualify?
* who should maintain this database?
* WHO WILL PAY FOR IT. (Both the initial tagging and database)
* can ownership transfer be done in a timely manner

That's just a start


So far, my criticism is that your plan is poorly thought out, and when questioned about the details, your responses come across as "my way is right and if you can t see that, yours a troll". IMO, if you are going to keep pushing this plan, you need some more details to build support.

 

I see several insuperable problems with @cplradar's proposals for which I have seen no proposed solutions. They are, just to mention a few:

...How is a "stolen" coin to be identified, reported, and logged into an accessible and secure database?
...Must every current coin owner prove his current valid ownership?
...How will people's privacy interests be protected? This in an age where the largest institutions, both private and public, cannot maintain their cybersecurity.
...Who will be authorized to validate the claim that a coin is "stolen"?
...What will be the appeal process to challenge a "stolen" claim?
...How long will all of the above take?
...Who will be responsible for all of the time and administrative work involved with the above?
...Who will be responsible for holding challenged coins and where will they be held?
...Who will pay for all of these services?
...What remedies in law or contract will be available for errors, mistakes, damages, lost business & etc. and how will damages be apportioned among responsible parties?

We can ignore the AI aspect of things because for certified coins it isn't really necessary to have AI involved. The scheme recommended is not unlike the program each state has for the legal transfer of motor vehicles and real property. In both of those areas, there is a large corpus of law and state administrative apparatus to identify and prevent the unlawful transfer of property and to ensure that the taxes are paid. Not to mention that it is also expensive and in many cases very time-consuming. For example, my brother just moved to Georgia and it cost him $800 to transfer his title and registration from Florida to Georgia. In many states (I think New Jersey is one), there are annual fees on the ownership of a vehicle that are in addition to tag/registration fees. How many people are really willing to expose their coin collecting hobby/business to the magnanimous ministrations of a state administrative framework?

Finally, to go back to one of my original challenges: We live in a world where there are unlimited demands and limited resources. So, resources must be allocated to the greatest benefit for the fewest resources. What is the justification in financial terms for this large intrusion into private business and the consequent expenses? There must be a set of rational justifications to support such a scheme and that justification must take the form of a cost/benefit analysis. Without that, and maybe even with it, there will be no support for the scheme. So far, in all the anecdotal "proof" of the problem and also the naive "solutions", I have seen no numbers. The use of media reports in a world of 8 billion people is a notoriously unacceptable method of research. I contend that there is no epidemic of felonious coin burglary/robbery and that the financial losses associated with it are not large by any rational measure. I don't have to prove that assertion because I am not the one proposing a big change and using the (unstated) claimed rate and cost of the crime to justify it.

During my working life as a designer, project engineer/construction manager and personnel manager, we had a saying that would prevent us from the mistakes due to hubris: "Do not start vast projects with half-vast ideas."

BTW, I don't object to the gentleman's postings despite him having called me a troll. Some of his posts are interesting and thought-provoking and I always have the option of not reading them and not responding to them. I long ago ceased feeling it necessary to "win" every argument.

 

Very well said.

Coin theft is an important topic. Nothing wrong with throwing out some ideas, but the solutions need to feasible. So far, there are too many important questions without any reasonable answers

 

Duh, okay!

 

Is there another UNIVERSE this individual can haunt and let us alone. PLEASE STOP POSTING!!!!

 

But who would we have to laugh at?

 

Who was to blame for this coin theft?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1556971/500000-coin-collection-stolen.html

 

It probbly is.

 

That is because I specifically gave you an answer to your specific question and then ignored it and just kept on posting. That is a noted troll behavior. You write very well, but most, if not all your questions have been already answered, and others are best to be detailed by a committee to implement such changes within the organizational structure of the ANA or PNG or even a new group formed of those organizations and the TPGers, and the auction houses. If you care to repost this in a new thread, we can hash out greater details such as financing, although I am sure you can think of reasonable ways to get this financed and cost is nominal.

This one line item, however, I will quickly address because it is the key reason why we tolerate the trade in stolen merchandise in the industry..

Who will be authorized to validate the claim that a coin is "stolen"?

When a registered coin is marked stolen by the owner it is validated as stolen...period. We are talking about shifting the burden of proof from the victim to the dealers. Don't buy hot coins. It is immoral and illegal. Your only recourse is to then return the coin to the rightful owner and recoup your loses from the individual who sold you the coin, unless you are in possession of a written receipt signed by the registered owner. Then you can return the coin and sue the registered owner for pocession based on the receipt and that matter can be beaten to death in court. We are talking a dramatic change in the way business is now conducted, where valuable merchandise is tracked through the system, as it is in other businesses. When you buy a registered coin, you will need to check its ownership and have it transferred to you on the spot when you buy the coin. AI can reasonably assure that the coin is authentic and the item you are buying.

This is not all bad news for dealers. Dealers will now esentially know that the more important parts of their inventory is secure and registered. When they sell an item, they transfer the registration along with the coin. There is no doubt now about ownerhsip. A virtual title is swapped with the coin.

 

The expense is minimal. Business is not private and hasn't ever been, so there is nothing to intrude. The benefit is the sharp reduction in the criminal activity that pervades every part of the industry. It is your conjecture that auction houses and TPGers should be able to continue to trade in stolen coins inconsequentially and in perpetuity. Ending illicit trades benifits everyone as the trade in coins can be made knowing that people are fundementally protected and includes dealers who are marked by criminals. That is real value to the common collector. We are talking billions of dollars in value for a few pennies of fees.

 

The expense for your proposed scheme is minimal??? Where are you getting your numbers?

* Who will scan the coins
* who will enter them into the database
* who will maintain the database
* who will transfer ownership
* who will be responsible for correcting errors
* what about security on the database? What if it gets hacked and criminals know what you own?

Don't say government. How much does NY State charge you to transfer your car title when you sell it?

If you want support for your plan, you need to be realistic. So far, all I'm seeing is a costly, time consuming system that doesn't seem feasible.