1818 Columbia 8 Escudos

Hey gang I picked this piece up this afternoon. I thought it was a neat looking piece. I wanted to share.

Enjoy!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Gorgeous, hope to get one by years end myself.

 

I apprecieate your concerns Doug.

The marks on the obverse to me appear to be planchet flaws. There are a couple of streaks of planchet flaws running on the obverse running through "G" on the obverse. The other ones appear in the obverse right field. On the reverse I saw those lines as well. I was under the impression that they were the result of a harsh die cleaning... there really isn't a rhyme or reason to them like you see with what I would consider "tool marks". They remind more of the die lines you see on early 80's Morgan silver dollars. Which we know are a result of die polishing. Personally I didn't have a problem with the marks or of course I wouldn't own it. On the other hand I am by far an expert on this particular type of coinage.

Even before posting this piece I had planed on getting it certified. So if it's not genuine we'll definitely be able find out.

 

It will be interesting to see whether Doug is correct, and that is indeed a counterfeit.

It does seem rather flat, but it is not obvious to me (that it is a fake).

However, IF it is made out of gold as it appears to be, it does seem odd that someone would make a fake using gold.

I do know that contemporary counterfeits of spanish colonial coins were made using Platinum, which was valued much lower than gold in the spanish colonies.

 

Here are some pictures taken of the areas. I am again going to have to respectfully disagree with you again Doug. I see these marks as planchet flaws. They look to me to be lamination's. Directly under the period after the "D" is a piece of the planchet that has laminated but has been retained. I wish I could get a really good picture of it. There is also a planchet flaw running through the shoulder of the bust which I tried to capture... but it didn't come out as well as it does in hand. In the last picture you can also see a small retained piece of a lamination under the chin that hasn't flaked away.

 

If Matt thinks it is gold, then I believe it is gold.

There could be a combination of a laminated planchet with planchet adjustment marks and file marks on the used die. It will be fun to see the TPG opinion.

 

Doug,

Thank you for the very informative post. I am very positive that your experience vastly outweighs mine on this subject.

Here are a few observations on my part (that could be justified or just completely wrong) and please feel free to correct me as this is a learning experience for everyone including myself.

#1 From my experience with flawed planchets, they do always seem to have a grain to them and seem to run the same way. IE woody cents. These are the most familiar improperly mixed planchets. They seem to have a grain similar to wood hence the name woody. I quote you here.

You can see in my earlier post that I have said a couple of times that "I wish I could get a better picture because in hand these are definitely planchet flaws". The piece under the chin with the retained part of the planchet... I did not see this addressed in your assessment of the coin. In my book this is unequivocally a planchet flaw and also what I am seeing over the rest of the coin. The coin was struck normally and then the impurities in the planchet caused pieces of the planchet to break away later. There is no displaced metal around the edges of these marks to be consistent with gouges or scratches. I learned long ago how to tell the difference between a scratch and/or gouge and a planchet flaw. I think that my photography is lacking in this case.

#2 The recut "E". This coin is 1818 and every piece of this die including the denticles was cut by hand. From your study of American coinage of the time you know that recutting of letters and numerals was common place and some were even more dramatic then what is seen here. IE the 1796 "Liherty" error and others.

I think that we have to keep in mind that this piece was (supposedly) struck in Popayan Columbia. This is far from the major mints (and die cutting talent) of Lima Preu, Mexico City or even Bogota. The "P FM" mintmark only struck 8 escudos from 1816-1820 before it was changed and never used again. It was used on 1 and 2 escudos for even less time. I have to surmise that this was due to the poor work being put out by the die cutter. I know your going to say that's grabbing at straws... but this is my opinion.

I have this piece packed up to be sent to NGC this afternoon. I for one hope that this is a VERY rare occasion where you are mistaken Doug. Either way I'm sure this is going to be a learning experience for everyone.

 

No matter what the outcome Matt those photos are spectacular. Are you still using the Canon 50D that you bought last year? Incredible details. Good lighting too.

It will be interesting to see what NGC says. Personally you both made excellent points, and I'm split here. Doug probably has more experience with World gold, while Matt handles more coins on a daily basis.

Let the games begin, and may the best man win!

 

I wish I still had all the 8 and 4 Escudos I sold on eBay back three years ago. I sold no telling how many. Dang!

 

Yes that was with the Cannon. I guess I am camera spoiled because those pictures don't really show the coin how I'd like to. I shoot pictures of coins every day and I just couldn't get them to turn out how I wanted.

 

I know what you mean. Some coins seem to photograph themselves while others try their best to resist the process altogether.

I normally have no problem with older silver and copper coins but gold coins have never been easy.

 

I agree with hiho, and in no way am I an expert, but I have viewed/studied a lot of 8 escudos lately (possible addition to my collection), and whereas I definitely see planchet flaws and I think some of that on the reverse may be die polish, I also see what is in my opinion damage.

Good luck with the grading, it will definitely be a learning experience for me so I can't wait for the results. :thumb:

Whatever the outcome .... all I can say (with no disrespect Matt) I hope you bought that coin for a basement price .... it's got way to many problems for my money !!

PS .... great photos of a hard subject to properly image!!

PS2 .... I hope my Saints beat your Colts:eat: