Caracalla or Elagabalus?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Orange Julius, Oct 16, 2021.

  1. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    So I recently picked up a cheap snack from the Bay.
    my coin.jpg
    The coin was attributed as a young-ish, post child but pre-beard Caracalla. After a bit of poking around I found the same coin on acsearch sold by CNG attributed also as:

    Ob: M AYΡ ANTΩNINOC AVΓ
    BITHYNIA, Nicaea. Caracalla. AD 198-217. Æ 22mm (6.01 g). Laureate bust right, slight drapery on left shoulder / NI-KA/I-EΩN, hexastyle temple. RG pg. 458, 475; BMC Pontus pg. 164, 79 var. (obverse legend); SNG Copenhagen -; SNG von Aulock -. VF, dark green and black patina, some minor roughness on the reverse.
    From the Garth R. Drewry Collection.
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=360802

    However after some further searching in addition to some other coins attributed to Caracalla, I started coming across coins (both identical and just from the same obverse die) as attributed to Elagabalus.

    Caracalla (Same obverse die but different reverse die):
    c1.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1543372
    c2.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=992486
    c3.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=226563

    Elagabalus (Similar.. either die match or close):
    e3.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3344605
    e2.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4604670
    e1.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=456760

    So... teen-ish Caracalla or late Elagabalus? In addition.. lets see your toss up Caracalla/Elagabalus coins.

    Edit: Notice the pellets on the well preserved examples at the beginning and end of the obverse legend... you can just barely see them on mine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  3. Kysly

    Kysly New Member

    Looks like caracalla
     
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  4. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    Yeah that's what I thought at first as the bust looked older than late Elagabalus... but the more I view examples I'm not sure.
     
  5. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Assuming the titulature on provincial coins of Nicaea parallels that on the imperial series, M AYΡ ANTΩNINOC AVΓ would be the equivalent of M AVR ANTONINVS AVG. This title is EXTREMELY rare for Caracalla, being used for just a few weeks in December 198, according to @curtislclay.

    I'm disinclined to attribute this to Caracalla, but that inscription without a preceding CAES doesn't make sense for Elagabalus, either. Curious, indeed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  6. ancientone

    ancientone Well-Known Member

  7. benhur767

    benhur767 Sapere aude

    It looks like Caracalla. Also, late Elagabalus would have facial hair.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  8. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I vote for Caracalla
     
  9. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Vote? OK, I'll vote for Elagabalus. I figure I have about a 50% chance of being right.
     
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  10. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    You're all wrong. It's clearly Carabalus.
     
  11. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    There are several coins in RPC VI that are attributed temporarily either to Caracalla or Elagabalus e.g.: https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/6/4763 and https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/6/3062.

    For yours https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/6/3113 they also say Rec 437 as Caracalla.

    To make things even more confusing, previously they had this one https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/6/6566/ as Elagabalus or Caracalla but they deleted this entry.... go figure

    I would attribute yours also as Caracalla or Elagabalus
     
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  12. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    Coins for reign Caracalla are not included in RPC online yet.

    If you search for Caracalla you get entries with Reign: uncertain, Elagabalus, Sauromates .., but not a single one for reign: Caracalla
     
  13. benhur767

    benhur767 Sapere aude

    Could be Elagacalla.
     
  14. nicholasz219

    nicholasz219 Well-Known Member

    I would say Caracalla because Elagabalus looked very young in his portraits due to his teen accession to the throne.

    E also had a rounded, boyish face in his portraits with a short pug nose with full lips and round vaguely eastern -ish eyes.

    I honestly think there has been a general confusion because provincials are just still shot through with more questions than answers a lot of times. There are entries in Rec Gen where coins of C are attributed to E but for the most part if you compare known portraits of each you start to see the differences in portrait more clearly even if the legends are similar.
     
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  15. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Discerning certain provincial coins of Elagabalus from those of Caracalla is a long-standing problem. In general, more recent references will likely represent more recent thinking but there isn't always a consensus. I can suggest the following article:

    Johnston, Ann (1982), 'Caracalla or Elagabalus? A Case of Unnecessarily Mistaken Identity' in American Numismatic Society Museum Notes 27, New York, pp. 97-147.

    Most ANS publications are available to read online at hathitrust.org.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  16. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    To beat this comparison a bit more than it probably needs to be... here's a few more and some findings after some additional searching.

    More Elagabalus of the same obverse die:

    e4.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=180576
    E5.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=172431

    More Caracalla of the same die:
    C5.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1325078
    C4.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=172431

    A more usual and maybe earlier Ela:
    E8.jpg
    Many more typical Elagabalus coins do have the legend as on my coins as M AYΡ ANTΩNINOC AVΓ... leading me to believe that my coin, although looking more like a young Caracalla is Elagabalus.
    A more usual and maybe later Caracalla:
    C6.jpg
    Later coins of Caracalla from this mint seem to have the legend ANTΩNINOC AYΓOYCTOC
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3618550
     
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  17. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I swear the provincials of these two guys are sometimes spitting images of each other. The same, or similar obverse legends don't help either.

    elegabalus.JPG

    This little guy could easily go both ways. I went for Elagabalus, but I could flip a coin and go Caracalla.
     
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  18. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    My preference may be influencing my opinion. I'd prefer it to be Caracalla as I think he's more impactful on the history of the empire. However... when I think more on who's more interesting... I guess it would be Elagabalus. He was unique and although maybe not as impactful, a more colorful story.
     
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