Netherlands - Gorinchem. Rose Noble, ND (1583-91).

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by silvereagle82, Oct 31, 2009.

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  1. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**


    @goldducat , very interesting information. Thank you.

    Do you thing the attribution/cataloguing used by Delmonte for the Gorinchem Rozenobel is still valid? As far as I know, he described two varieties for this coin, Delmonte 825bis and 825ter. Have new varieties been discovered more recently, and how much have the rarities assigned by him changed? (quite a bit from what you say).

    I have this low grade example in my collection. Would you be so kind to verify which variety it is? thank you !

    Gorinchem Rozenobel Goldnoble Ryal - OBV:REV - GP October 2021 - 1.jpeg.png
     
    Eduard, Oct 12, 2021
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Darek it's been so many years since I found that info that I honestly can't remember what book or article I found that info in, nor can I recall the coin's type off the top of my head. But if I recall correctly, and I think I do, Grierson was the source. Unfortunately I no longer have any of my books on the subject as they have been sold or given to younger collectors so that they may further their own knowledge.

    As for what I have said in this thread, yeah, it's all old info, but it was accurate when I said it - based on available sources at the time. And I am all too aware that things have changed since this thread was originated, and close to 10 years since I last added to it. Since then I have become aware, and so have numerous others, that there are lot more examples of this previously listed as a very rare coin out there. I haven't exactly been counting them up for the last 10 years but I'd guess that by now the count is up to about 20 or so examples that I have seen. And I believe there are a couple of new varieties as well.

    As I'm sure you're well aware Darek, I haven't actively searched for specific coins or actively tracked auctions in quite a few years now. About the only ones I see any more are those I run across by chance and those my students send to me and or ask me about. Much like I did with you for many years.

    Oh I still keep on learning on pretty much a daily basis but I don't do all the research and work I used to do Darek. I handed that job off to you and a few of my other students some years back - the next generation if you will :) I add what I can if and when opportunity presents itself and will forever continue to share the knowledge I have garnered over a lifetime with others. For me, that is and always has been what it's all about. But I'm downright positive you already knew that too ;)
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 12, 2021
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  4. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    Sorry, but I do not have a correct classification of this coin type done, and I do not use other classifications, which I consider incomplete. When I have it done, I will let you know.
     
    goldducat, Oct 12, 2021
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  5. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    Of course I knew that, Doug. I only wanted you to be more cautious, especially writing about coin rarity. It is good that you are educating the younger generation and I have always supported it. Do what you are doing, but remember you are found to be a guy skilled in the Dutch coinage and people trust you. You are saying "I only know 7 copies" and many readers will use a shortcut: "there is 7 copies known". So the only think I am asking you is to drop Delmonte's book when referring to rarity. It's very, very outdated.

    The reason I wrote anything is a private message I received from a person this forum, with a question what I think about your information that "the British Noble was actually copied from an earlier Dutch type coin". This is the only reason I have added a supplement and the only reason I am saying that your post could be understood incorrectly. Because it actually was understood incorrectly.

    You are right, you do not need to continue your research, and may use an "old knowledge", which basically can be more or less ok, until a major change will happen and you miss it. For example, numerous rosenobles were discovered in the hoard of Randwijk, found in Nov 1987 and auctioned by Laurens Schulman auction house in Feb 1990. I cannot publish scans of the catalog here (due to copyrights), but I can tell you there were 542 gold and 36 silver coins in this hoard. Within this amount were 20 nobles (various provinces), 3 half nobles, 127 rosenobles (of which 28 "Flemish" Gorinchem type), 118 half rosenobles and three other types related to rosenoble (from the Utrecht and Zeeland mints).

    So, ONE (!) auction catalog includes 28 "Flemish" Gorinchem rosenobles. When you miss it, you miss everything for this coin type. Yeah, I know, noone knows everything. This is also why I am sharing it with you here.

    Speaking of the "Flemish" Gorinchem rozenobles, I estimate their rarity - keeping up the Delmonte's rarity scale - as R. Personally, I know no less than 50 (fifty) different copies of this type and had about 10 of them in my hands (private collections and musea). Btw, for this particular type no less than 8 obverse and 8 reverse dies were used; you have all 16 legend varieties listed in the aforementioned auction catalog. So we may say it's almost a common type :)
     
    goldducat, Oct 12, 2021
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  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Darek, read my post above yours where I explained that what you're referring to I posted many years ago - and that since then, the information known has changed.

    As for Delmonte's book, I started correcting the bad info in Delmonte's book before I ever started posting in this thread ! This thread is just one of several, even older threads, on this same subject.
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 13, 2021
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