Netherlands - Gorinchem. Rose Noble, ND (1583-91).

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by silvereagle82, Oct 31, 2009.

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  1. england

    england New Member

    Hi GDJMSP,

    That is not good news I got the coin from a well known auction in London.

    Are you sure that it is fake and "completely different" and could you expand on why you suspect this may be a cast fake?

    I fully understand your concerns as even I, a newbee could not find one with the same number or design of wavy lines under the rose!
     
    england, Sep 20, 2012
    #21 + Quote Reply
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Am I sure ? Absolutely not. But based on what I see that is my best guess.

    As for being completely different, yes. Just look at the details on the genuine coins. Pictures of two of them are posted in this thread. The fonts on most of the letters are different, the sword tip on all of the genuine coins lines up right under the left leg of the N above, the rose is centered, the positioning of the legends is different, and overall the design is mushy on your coin.

    The reason I think it is a cast fake is because the coin has what looks like casting bubbles, a very rough and uneven surface, and many of the details did not come through well, and that is not due to wear.

    edit - As for the wavy lines under the rose, that is the one thing that does not make me think your coin is fake. Look at Eduard's coin posted in this thread. His is exactly like yours in that one detail. But his is also different than all other examples I have seen - regarding that single detail.

    More than likely, your coin was probably based on genuine coins that came from the same die the Eduard's did since those are the ones I have ever seen like that.

    Of course, if that is true, it also means that there is at least 1 more example of this very rare coin out there because Eduard's was a ground find and he is the one that found it. That would bring the total number of this coin to 8, that I know of.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 20, 2012
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. england

    england New Member

    I will have to go back to the "reputable" auction house about the suspicious looking casting bubbles!

    Could you point out the location of these as it might help if I can point them out to them.

    Also, I had a close look at Eduard's coin and although similar the waves beneath the rose are slightly different and I have noticed now that the crown is also significantly different and I think the shield is at a slightly different angle.

    Also the Rose is off centre to the right instead of in the centre. Would this be normal for a variation on the gorinchem?

    Assuming this does turn out to be a genuine Gorinchem would this make it rare on the delmonti rarity scale that I have seen referred to on this forum and how can I find out more details on this scale?
     
    england, Sep 20, 2012
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    They are pretty much all over the place, on the obv they are most noticeable close to the edges, in the shield area, and the rose area. On the rev close to the edges, and where the details are weakest in the upper, central part of the coin.

    Now it is important to understand something. What I think are casting bubbles appear as small dark dots and or pits on the coin. There are only 2 things that cause these small pits - air bubbles that rise to the surface when the molten metal is cast in the mold, and corrosion. But this coin was minted in what is essentially pure gold, and gold does not corrode. So logic dictates they must be casting bubbles.

    And the entire surface of the coin is very rough and uneven where it should be smooth. This is also an indicator common to poorly made cast copies. Look at the other two coins already pictured in this thread. Eduard's was buried in the ground, possibly for hundreds of years. But yet it shows no sign of corrosion or those small pits. The other coin of course, Conrad's, in the first post of this thread, is almost pristine. And I am posting pics of the example I used to own so you can examine it as well. But by looking at those 3 coins and examining the coin's surface, and then comparing it to yours, you should easily see what I mean by the surface of yours being very rough.

    This is the coin I used to own -

    1583 rose noble obv.jpg

    1583 rose noble rev.jpg



    There are many differences in the design details of your coin from the known genuine examples. The ones you mention are but a few. As for variations, I only know of 7 examples of this coin that exist in the entire world, 3 of them are pictured in this thread. And all 3 of them are the same with the only difference being on Eduard's coin and the lines under the rose. Other than that one difference they are the same in design details. But yours is entirely different. And as I said before, I have seen pictures of 6 out of the 7 known examples, and they were all the same in every detail, except that one small thing on Eduard's. And that may be due to the fact that Eduard's was bent and folded, and we just can't see the other line under the rose.

    So, with only 7 examples known to exist, there are no known variations.



    Delmonte wrote what is considered to be, and has been for decades, the definitive book on this type of coinage - Le Bennelux D'or. In it he provided a rarity scale for the coins he listed in his book. The scale is quite simple.

    R = Not Common
    R.1 = Rare
    R. 2 = Very Rare
    R. 3 = Extremely Rare
    R. 4 - Of the highest rarity (only 2 or 3 specimens known to exist)
    Unique = 1 known

    That's all there is to know about the scale.

    Now rather obviously, as time goes by things change. Delmonte wrote his book almost 50 years ago. When I bought my coin there were only 2 or 3 examples known to exist. Then Conrad found his, then Eduard posted about his, and in the subsequent years a few others surfaced in coin auctions. But those are the only examples that I am aware of in the entire world - as I said, a total of 7 known.

    So if your coin is genuine, which based on the info I have I doubt it is, then yes, it would most definitely be rare for it would be 1 of only 8 examples known to exist in the world.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 21, 2012
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. england

    england New Member

    This is very disconcerting as the item was listed as :

    Light coinage, Ryal, Gorinchem, Gp. II, mm. crown on rev. only, trefoil stops, trefoils in spandrels, 7.59g/12h (cf. SCBI Schneider 841ff; N p.85, note; S 1952). Fine

    Thank you for your help, Do you know of any where I would be able to confirm that this is not genuine as it was sold by a London Dealer and I am feeling rather stupid in trusting the description? :p
     
    england, Sep 21, 2012
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Do you mind saying who you bought this from ? The obv of the coin is also damaged with some rather severe scratches and the damage isn't even mentioned in the description. I would think a reputable auction house would mention that. And it's no where near a Fine grade in my opinion.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 22, 2012
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. thecoin

    thecoin New Member

    I love how old those are but look like new!
     
    thecoin, Sep 22, 2012
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. england

    england New Member

    I will in due course name and shame the dealer, however for legal reasons (Public forum) I guess I should have it confirmed as a fake first.

    Do you know of what is the best way to go about this?

    Just out of interest, what is a genuine example of these worth roughly?
     
    england, Sep 22, 2012
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I'm not that familiar with dealers in London so it's hard for me to tell you who to go to. But you can try these guys - http://www.cngcoins.com/Contact+CNG.aspx

    Value can vary greatly, especially with a coin like this where so few examples are even available for sale. Value also depends on condition of course. The nicer the coin the more it is worth as a general rule. Conrad's coin in this thread is far and away the nicest I have seen out of all of them. I can't recall off the top of my head what he paid for his, but I paid about $2000 for mine 7 years ago. I'd have to go back through old auction records to find realized prices on the others, but as I recall it was somewhere around 3000 euros.

    What did you pay ?
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 22, 2012
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. england

    england New Member

    I thought it was about that edited I have struggled to find any books or detailed information.

    It did however come with provenance so I can only assume without having a reference book or expert in the field confirm otherwise, that it is genuine as the history given by the provenance say it is.

    I was rather hoping that I could find out more information so that perhaps I could accurately price it, as it looks like I will only break even on the purchase price if I am Lucky.

    Do you know of any specialist texts on the subject?
     
    england, Sep 22, 2012
    #30 + Quote Reply
  12. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    what? OK - which Monarch is Edwaurd?
     
    mrbrklyn, Sep 23, 2012
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    But how old is this provenance, how far back does it go ? I ask that because if it is older than 7 years then it might not really mean anything. You see, until I bought I bought my coin 7 years ago there was really only 1 confirmed example in the British Museum. So prior to 7 years ago, when there was only 1 confirmed example, it could have easily been assumed that your coin was but another variety. But in the years following when I discovered my coin several other examples have surfaced. And they are all the same, which indicates there is only 1 variety, not more than 1.

    No, it's pretty hard to have specialist text on a coin that is all but unknown. There is probably more information about that coin in this thread than there is in all of the books combined. I have the auction records and pictures of 5 of the 7 known examples, so does Conrad. And all 5 were discovered in the last 7 years. Between Conrad and I, we probably know as much, and maybe more, about that coin than anyone else does. I'm not claiming I'm an expert, I am most definitely not. But when there is that little to know ...........

    As I said, before that the one in the British Museum was the only confirmed example in Delmote's book. It was rumored that another might exist but it could not be confirmed by Delmonte. Your coin may be the one that rumor referred to seeing as how you say there is a provenance for it.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 23, 2012
    #32 + Quote Reply
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Ruben, Eduard is a member of this forum and he is the owner of one of the known examples of this coin. He has posted about it in this thread.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 23, 2012
    #33 + Quote Reply
  15. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    who happened to have found a 16th century gold coin in his front yard
     
    mrbrklyn, Sep 23, 2012
    #34 + Quote Reply
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    No, as I recall he found along a forest trail. Not sure, but I think he was metal detecting at the time.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 23, 2012
    #35 + Quote Reply
  17. silvereagle82

    silvereagle82 World Gold Collector

    England,
    I apologize for not getting back with you regarding you personal message but I've been away from the cointalk for awhile.
    GDJMSP has answered you way better than I could and unfortunately i don't have much to add to what he has said.

    I offer you this limited information ... because Doug is right there isn't much published out there on this coin. Pay close attention to the legends and the "pellet" placements when trying to attribute it.

    This is how I have described my coin in my personal collection catalog.

    Country: NETHERLANDS (Gorinchem)
    Type: Rose Noble Date: ND (1583-91)
    Certification: NGC #3234492-001 Grade: MS 62
    Coin Information:
    Design: OBVERSE: King on ship holding sword and shield of arms, banner with E. Legend – “ED∴∴WARD∴DI∴GRA∴REX∴ANGL∴Z∴FRAN∴DNS∴IB∴” ~ REVERSE: Ornate cross with rose and sun at centre, crowned leopards in angles, within a polylobe. Legend - “IHD∴AVT∴TRANSIENS∴PER∴MEDIVM∴ILLORV∴IBAT”
    Mint: Gorinchem
    Mintage: Unknown
    References: Fr.80 / Delmonte #825bis (Rarity Scale = R.4 – Of the highest rarity, only 2 or 3 specimens known)
    Specifications: Diameter – 33.0 mm
    Weight – 7.56 g. @ 0.9860 Gold = .2397 oz AGW
    Acquired: Goldberg World and Ancient Coin Auction – Oct. 2009
    Providence: None
    Notes:
    ➢ Perhaps the finest specimen of this type known in the world.
    ➢ Imitation of the Ryal or Rose Noble of Edward IV of England.

    BTW .... as Doug has said between he and I we have found more than 2 or 3 of these specimens in our studies (Heck, he had one and I have one ) so the rarity scale is probably an R.3 but .... Mine is still by far THE FINEST we've seen I've seen
     
    silvereagle82, Mar 5, 2013
    #36 + Quote Reply
  18. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    Howdy Doug. Where did you get the information that the English Noble was copied from an even older coin of the Netherlands? What was this older coin type? I am not sure if you know a whole story, but regardless of this, if you fail to expand your thread, there are more unknowns than information :) So let me explain it further.

    According to my knowledge and following the Dutch Encyclopedia of Coins and Banknotes, it goes like this: a NOBLE (in English, NOBEL in Dutch) is a high quality English gold coin, introduced in 1344 by Edward III (1327-1377), with a fineness of 0.995 (23 7/8 carats) and a weight of 8.86 g, soon reduced to 7.78 g in 1351 and at a rate of 2/3 British pound.

    At this point this is not likely this was following some older Dutch coin type, because as you see on a noble, the sculptor recalls Eduard's victory over the French in the naval battle at Sluis (1340).

    With the weight reduction to 7.00 g by 1412, a lighter noble was introduced; Henry Noble. Under Edward IV, in 1465 the noble was replaced by a modified type. It was called RYAL in England, and a ROZENOBEL in the Netherlands.

    The English noble was widely spread in the Netherlands and was frequently imitated there since 1388. i.a. in Flanders by Philip the Bold (1388-1404), John the Fearless (1404-1419) and Philip the Good (1419-1467); in Gelderland by William I (1377-1402). In 1487 a Burgundian Nobel (7.41 g, 0.99 fineness) was issued. In 1488 also a HALF NOBLE (of Austria) was minted in Brabant, Gelderland and Holland (3.40 g, 0.952 fineness) in the name of Roman King Maximilian of Austria and Philips the Fair (4th issue). The Dutch name of this half-noble is SCHUITKEN.

    In the last quarter of the 16th century, numerous imitations of the noble were issued by various regions and cities across the Netherlands, the first being by Ghent in 1581 (Flemish noble). Also in that period many imitations barely distinguishable from the 15th century originals were put into circulation. The English noble and his imitations were amply represented in the coin find Serooskerke (1966).

    See some nice scans from the Encyclopedie van munten en papiergeld attached. You may also read more in Ives, H.E., Foreign imitations of the English noble, New York 1941.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
    goldducat, Oct 12, 2021
    #37 + Quote Reply
  19. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    I am not an expert in this coinage and may be wrong here, but I wouldn't say based on your photos that the coin is cast. The legend is similar to the one I found on other coins in my files. This coinage is described as not a Flemish immitation, but a genuine Edward IV coinage during his first reign (1461-1470). It's a gold "Rose" Ryal of Ten Shillings, light coinage (1465-70) struck in the Bristol Mint.

    The mint mark of crown you see on this coin was only used from 1466 to 1469 during the first reign of King Edward IV at the Bristol, London and York mints.

    See two files attached (one of them with the crown mm).
     

    Attached Files:

    goldducat, Oct 12, 2021
    #38 + Quote Reply
  20. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    You read it in the auction catalog, I suppose. It only means that the person writing the description knew so many copies of this type. Look at the description of the coin sold for $ 2.16 million in the CNG auction: https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=350283 They say "6 copies known". In 2008, at an auction, Stack's wrote about the same coin "one of 2 copies known". This is what Friedberg reported after Stack's in his Gold Coins of The World catalog in 2009. I don't blame them. There was no literature in the subject, but you have to admit that no one studied it well. At this time you had a copy at the Smithsonian Inst. from a long time, you had several old Stack's and Chapman sales in the US, etc.

    When I wrote a book about the Polish 100 ducats, it turned out that there was a mistake in the CNG description and one of the 6 coins indicated was a copy weighing 90 ducats. At the same time, I found 14 (sic!) different copies of 100 ducats full weight and showed almost all of them in photos.

    What I want to say is you need to read, study and do not trust 100% what you read in the auction descriptions of the European coins. And never ever write it as a certain information. My impression is that many US auction houses and especially US grading companies know a lot about American coins but have a very limited knowledge about European coins, especially on the coinage prior to 1800. The leading grading company keeps mixing the forgeries and original minting of the Netherlands ducats from the 19th century, not to list my complains further.

    Regarding the Delmonte's rarity grades: the book was published in 1964 and most - yes, most! - of grades are outdated. At this time Albert Delmonte did his best. Today his book is no longer a guidance for coin rarity. Just google for the Utrecht 1650 gold ducat, rarity R3 in Delmonte. Do you think it's really so rare? :)
     
    goldducat, Oct 12, 2021
    #39 + Quote Reply
  21. goldducat

    goldducat Active Member

    Silvereagle82, sorry for saying that, but only in 2021 three different Gorinchem nobles, all graded NGC MS-63, were or will be auctioned (of course for this coin type "some grade" does not mean a real condition). The total amount of Gorinchem nobles I found in the world auctions in 2021 is no less than 9 copies.

    If you want to buy a second example for your collection, check the links below:

    Editions V. Gadoury > Auction 2021 lot 1834 NGC MS63 https://www.coinarchives.com/w/openlink.php?l=5280500|5957|1834|99b0b0b3bd9f156b76ab71f15530ed5d

    Schulman b.v. > Auction 368 lot 700 https://www.coinarchives.com/w/openlink.php?l=5300372|5986|700|f19385b7190e468baf1f1fdef74822b8

    Schulman b.v. > Auction 368 lot 701 https://www.coinarchives.com/w/openlink.php?l=5300373|5986|701|686c77d891a94428fcca6d06f6978dcb


    Stack's Bowers Galleries (& Ponterio) > Collector's Choice October 2021 Auction lot 71744 NGC AU58 https://www.coinarchives.com/w/openlink.php?l=5305120|5989|71744|28dde33e84f5347b8daebe2b68793b7e
     
    goldducat, Oct 12, 2021
    #40 + Quote Reply
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